The Big Stretch

[fengshway]

Originally Posted by CloveApple

In the same way I hope you understand that that 724g of carbs was not as fun as it might sound from a distance. It wasn't an enjoyable sensory experience. In fact it sucked. It hurt physically while and after it was happening.

jennifer, I would venture to say that many people who have struggled with weight know exactly how this feels. as someone who actually has struggled with unplanned overeating and then became the kind of athlete that espi mentions who needs to overfeed periodically for a specific purpose, the two are NOT even in the same universe. the binges that I had when I was obese were NOT in anyway helpful to learning how to carb up later on. they felt out of control, disrespectful to my body, and the types of food were way different.

Jane mentioned the critical differences in her post. one of the key things is tracking. I also carefully track my carb ups, and log everything several days before when I get home from shopping for my carb up. bingeing is unplanned, unrestrained, and for me, never tracked, although I think this would have been a good thing for me to do then had I known. jane also talks about the types of food---bingeing often includes a lot of sugar plus fat foods--carb ups are really really low in fat, in fact, my fat grams on a carb up are way lower than on a normal day for me, even though my calories are above maintenance.

like jane says, carb ups for me really ARE enjoyable, it doesn't just SEEM that way, I promise. they don't physically hurt me, but I wouldn't want to eat that way every day, that is for sure. my carb ups remind me that the way I eat every day now is my preferred way of eating.

you are making so much progress, jennifer. look how far along you are, you are smart to be exploring all of the options you are exploring for treatment. keep at it. it is worth it, I promise.

[CloveApple]

I've been reading the replies (and appreciate them). If I've been slow to answer it's that I feel awkward writing about this stuff. Some of it feels like TMI, some is embarrassing. So I end up starting replies and never getting around to hitting the reply button.

Originally Posted by Espi

Thanks for the explanation. Yep, everyone has their own demons: both under- and overeating while you actually want to eat more /less is no fun.

Guilt-free overeating is.. but not when it's triggered in such a way that you can't stop yourself anymore. I've come to experience the joy of planned overeating & I can tell you : it's fun! That's probably what Karla wanted to tell you.. and here's to hoping that one day, you may actually NEED to do such a huge carb-up as you're going to be in such great shape that you are actually in that category of people who either do this to get even leaner or are going to cycle/run/canoe whatever a huge distance.

I'm positive you will get there! I did. Wendy did.. and so can you

It hadn't even occurred to me that an explanation was needed (or that I was giving one). I just figured I was mentioning the obvious, but now I see I wasn't. I guess for each of us there are parts of our lives that we are so familiar with that it's easy to forget that they aren't familiar to everyone.

I won't say never, but right now that sort of carb up isn't anywhere near any of my goals. They fascinate me in a vicarious pleasure sort of way; and they fascinate me because I like to understand how things work and the theoretical underpinnings of different strategies. But I've no desire to DO any of the things involved!

Originally Posted by kfisherx

Epsi captured it. Planned overeating is a good thing both for body recomp and for performance goals and I see you getting to these one day. You will then see it as a "fun" and "healthy" thing to do like Wendy or Jane write about in their logs. I am always jealous of them when I read how they can plan and do their carb ups with not only ease (or so it seems) but they actually enjoy it. It is a miserable and physically painful thing for me most of the time to do. When I wrote my statement, I did not realize that your 724g carb up was physically painful too. So sorry to hear that. To me, when I read that, it was such an amazing feat. I did not judge it as possibly a bad thing outside of the overall affect to long term weight loss goals because being able to eat a lot is something I strive to do. It is weird how we are all so very different and yet we are all the same....

I'm glad you posted because while your comment threw me at first, it's that very unexpectedness that led to real conversation and understanding some new things.

I had no idea your own carb ups were that difficult for you. No idea it even hurt at all. I got the impression it was stressful, or at least that when you are stressed it is harder to eat, but I guess I didn't really grasp how hard it was. It makes me sad to hear that and I hope that gets easier for you at some point.

Originally Posted by missjane

Oh, I completely enjoy my carbloads! Keep in mind, though, that they are planned, as Karla points out. AND, they are carbloads....very little fat. So, it's not like I'm throwing down a large pepperoni and a couple quarter-pounders. It's controlled, and it's carbs. That's it. I truly have no problem with them at all. In fact, I really have to track carefully, or I will go over my carbs allowed (and that's a lot of carbs when I load!)

They are fun to read about Mmmm, pop tarts. Heck even aside from the nomminess factor they fascinate me to read about. All the strategizing and thought that goes into them.

Originally Posted by Etana

If you don't log your food online, how will you know how much you eat in a day; how are you planning on tracking your food?

Originally Posted by LisaS

I think she meant she wasn't going to post it online (publicly) not that she wasn't going to track.

Bingo. My actual food tracking happens on pocketed bits of paper (when I'm on the go), in a text file on my computer, and in CalorieKing software (also on my computer). The food records I've been posting online are data cut and pasted from CalorieKing reports.

I started posting food online in the hopes I'd find it helpful in the same way I found reporting to Alan helpful. Maybe I would have found it more helpful if I'd been willing to post the exact details of the daily food, maybe not. In any case there's stuff I'm just not willing to publish for the browsers of eternity, though I think I would tell it to the people that actually post. (It's occurred to me that this sort of hesitation may be an argument for the sort of gated community Leigh is building.)

As it was I did learn some things from it, and hey it started this conversation.

[Fang]

Originally Posted by CloveApple

Thankies. Maintenance does seem to be it's own skill, and yet the one given the least amount of attention. Could you imagine an infomercial full of people saying things like "Thanks to Newt Rah System I've maintained my weight for 3 months!!" and sounding all excited and hyper about it?

Would that be in my future career of competitive eating?

Seriously though, I can see why you'd have carb envy. Sometimes when I read about you "pigging out" (and that turns turns out to be an extra piece of fruit) or you talk about having trouble forcing yourself to eat your calories it's hard not to want to live in your universe. And yet of course I know it's not an easier universe to live in. I just imagine that it is sometimes. I know the reality of it is not as fun as it sounds.

When I first started this whole fitness thing, three years ago, I did Body for Life for 3 months, lost 12 pounds and then kind of collapsed--workouts 6 days a week were too much for me. It took me a long time to figure out how to lose weight, I kept doing the whole fist/palm thing and it wasn't 'til I came to this site that I figured out how to actually lose fat, with the help of Leigh and Jane and others. But during that whole period--I guess it was over a year--I ate 6 times a day religiously and became a genius at maintaining. At the time, I was terribly frustrated, but in retrospect it allowed me to feel what it's like to have steady blood sugar levels, and to eat healthily without my former freaky binges. In fact I told one of my clients recently that I wanted her to just eat at maintenance, healthy food, because her eating habits are totally bizarre and I want her to understand what it's like to nourish oneself without the pressure of "dieting" all the time.

I picked up a book called "The Craving Brain" at the library day before yesterday and I read it cover to cover last night because I was so fascinated by the author's assertions on addictions--that the "craving" of addiction is an ancient survival mechanism running amok. It broke down the whole question of an "addictive personality" (I am one) in such a clear manner that I am still reeling from it. I won't attempt to summarize it here but I can say that it has had a profound impact on how I view my past life--which was pretty insane. Anyway, I wanted to mention it to you because it might be useful to you--he's a doctor in NYC--Ronald Ruden.

And, I wanted to just mention--you were saying that when Karla eats a lot it's an extra apple--NO. I watched her eat a 6'4" dude under the table for three days straight. She ordered and ate TWO meals right in front of me twice, and she did NOT seem to be suffering. But then, she also lifted, ran, worked out with the group, and stayed up all night drinking, so she's not exactly um....(normal).

[CloveApple]

Originally Posted by fengshway

jennifer, I would venture to say that many people who have struggled with weight know exactly how this feels. as someone who actually has struggled with unplanned overeating and then became the kind of athlete that espi mentions who needs to overfeed periodically for a specific purpose, the two are NOT even in the same universe. the binges that I had when I was obese were NOT in anyway helpful to learning how to carb up later on. they felt out of control, disrespectful to my body, and the types of food were way different.

Jane mentioned the critical differences in her post. one of the key things is tracking. I also carefully track my carb ups, and log everything several days before when I get home from shopping for my carb up. bingeing is unplanned, unrestrained, and for me, never tracked, although I think this would have been a good thing for me to do then had I known. jane also talks about the types of food---bingeing often includes a lot of sugar plus fat foods--carb ups are really really low in fat, in fact, my fat grams on a carb up are way lower than on a normal day for me, even though my calories are above maintenance.

like jane says, carb ups for me really ARE enjoyable, it doesn't just SEEM that way, I promise. they don't physically hurt me, but I wouldn't want to eat that way every day, that is for sure. my carb ups remind me that the way I eat every day now is my preferred way of eating.

you are making so much progress, jennifer. look how far along you are, you are smart to be exploring all of the options you are exploring for treatment. keep at it. it is worth it, I promise.

I get the vast difference between binging and carb ups. I suspect that there are certain macro ranges both my binges and overeating tend to fall into, ranges I'm drawn to at those times, and they definitely aren't low fat types of carbyness. (Actual overeating or an actual binge may be more sugary or lower fat because of what happens to be on hand, but the stuff I'm actually craving isn't.)

You know it's funny but I have trouble seeing where I am as progress sometimes. I think there's this movie in my head of where I thought I'd be and since reality's not matching up I don't see progress a lot of times. Actually I really truly thought I'd be done with the fat loss by now. (Hah!) Though if the scale loss had stayed on the same slope it started on I would have hit my goal by now.

Still there has been immense progress.

• I don't have sleep apnea.
• I'm not desperately tired all the time
• I don't have high blood pressure.
• Andrew has said I pick up on exercises and motions faster than I used to. (Funny thing is I thought he had just gotten better at teaching them to me.)
• My SI joint(hip/back pain) is still an ongoing issue but my glutes and core are stronger than when I started so maybe that will eventually resolve.
• I ventured into a gym, then into the weight area, then into the free weights
• I bought a bike and (excepting the long break from it when the SI was worse) use it for local errands
• I don't look anything like I did when I started

[kfisherx]

Originally Posted by Fang

And, I wanted to just mention--you were saying that when Karla eats a lot it's an extra apple--NO. I watched her eat a 6'4" dude under the table for three days straight. She ordered and ate TWO meals right in front of me twice, and she did NOT seem to be suffering. But then, she also lifted, ran, worked out with the group, and stayed up all night drinking, so she's not exactly um....(normal).

Wow, you know I almost forgot about this. The Summit was at the tail end of my "bulking" period. I had been eating nearly 3K cals a day during those 7 months. During the first months I actually cried almost every day during at least one meal. By the end I could do it without too much stress. The Summit was horrible because there were no refridgerators in the rooms, no grocery stores nearby and we went out to eat 2 times a day. I had to get 1K or more into me at every meal. So yeah... I ordered 2 meals most times we sat down and it really wasn't a big deal by that time to just put it in me.

Now I am coming off the cut and ramping back up it is painful again for me and some days I cry when I have to eat. But I remember now that I did it before and I can do it again and that the pain does not last forever. I will get used to this again. Thanks for that reminder!

Sorry I threw ya for a spin Jennifer. It is really hard to imagine what it must be like to be in the other place....

[CloveApple]

I'm just going to start with this week's workouts and not try to catch up on posting older stuff.

Monday 10-19-09
This was my session w/ Andrew. My notes for this suck (a trend lately and not a good one. When I can't track numbers and progress I'm not motivated.) He put together a quick bodyweight circuit to have as an option for days when I don't have much time.

lunge w/ two bands 12L,12R
. (not challenging as I'd have to be taller to generate much band tension)
bandwalk (gym's grey band w/handles, harder than usual green band)
. 3 x15 ft
pushups(thighs on ball):12
pike w/ball: 12
bridge (no number written down?)
back extension: 15
squat held to count of 10
(second round had a few changes as stuff got tweaked.)
bandwalk: 3x 15
pushup(ankles on ball)/pike (alternating): 10
bridge
back extensions

then (not part of circuit)
rows 15 @ 25#
triceps kickback: 15 @ 10#
Ys:12 (lost count)
pullup: 12 w/100# assistance, 8 w/90# assist
hip sled: 2x: left leg 15 @50#, right leg 15@50#

Wednesday 10-21-09
11AM gym
stretches
30 minutes on ARC (3 sprints in mix)
5 minutes warm up (100-120)
6 minutes at 125-145
repeat 3 times:
- 1 minute 155-170
- 2 min 135-155
5 min 125-145
5 min 100-120

I wanted to bike Friday and hit the gym Saturday but Friday was cold and continuously rainy. So...

Friday 10-23-09
8:40PM bodyweight circuit
I was pretty unmotivated all through this and things just weren't clicking.

squats (held for a count of 10): 12
bandwalk w/ green band: approx 15ft x4
superset:
- pushups on ball (on ankles): 7 (pissed to stop but total form break down)
- pike: 12
(notes suck on this next stuff -guessing everything not specified was 12)
bridge
back extension
squat
bandwalk: approx 15ft x4
pushup/pike alternating: think this was 10
bridge
back extensions

Saturday 10-24-09
A friend dropped me off in a suburb where I wanted to try a new bike route. (I'm in the area frequently lately but had always caught a bus to get there or home.)

I'm glad I picked a day when I didn't have to be anywhere in a hurry. I got turned around at least twice even though I'd plotted everything out on a bike map and Google Maps.

It started with more than 20 minutes of frustration while I tried to find the bike trail access. I could see the trail right where the map said it was, but on the other side of a tall fence. I never did find an "official" access point but there was a spot I could carry my bike across some railroad tracks to get on the trail.

Gorgeous day though. Crisp but not cold and a decent number of people were out biking, walking, or skating. Once I finally got on the trail it took me about 40 minutes to bike home. It was pretty much all level or downhill. My heart rate was usually around 98-100 with some occasional higher numbers.

Sunday: Tonight I'm working on a new workout log form since the one I have has gotten unwieldy. I want to have it ready in time to use for Monday's session w/Andrew.

[beesknees]

Just catching up...

When I moved from Uptown to a suburb, I once biked around for 30 minutes trying to find access to a bike trail. I remember being so frustrated being able to see it, but not knowing where to get to it. Grrr. So I can relate

Not much to add about the food stuff. Hope you are still moving forward.

[CloveApple]

I just got home from meeting with the Emily Program dietitian for the second time. This is my 5th appointment with somebody there and apparently I'm still doing intake stuff!

The first time I saw her was pretty much totally devoted to her intake questions. So this is the first I really got to hear what she thought. If I do their intensive program this dietitian is one of the two people I'd have to work with. I left really upset because I just cannot see working with her.

She thinks that I'm eating way too much protein and that the body "needs" grains, not just "needs carbohydrates" but "needs grains." I could respect a more limited statement, but that's ridiculous. She went on to say something about glucose being the body's main source of fuel and that being the reason for needing more carbs.

I could respect reasoning that a certain nutritional strategy had worked with past clients to interrupt binging. I could respect the idea that limiting some foods could lead to binging on them more and therefore see why she might be looking to see what I was restricting. But this was way past that.

I don't think I'm entirely closed off to suggestions I don't like. For example I found the idea of maintenance upsetting but I upped my target calories because I could see that the reasoning for it made sense.

I know that part of my upset is that I'm not being entirely rational about food right now so I'm trying hard to keep in mind that not all my resistance to suggested food changes is rational. Heck sometimes I'd say resistance signals something I should try. (For example right now I very much want to avoid restaurants and eating at friends', but I know that's a discomfort that needs to be pushed. I want that part of my life back.)

But I think my reactions to the dietitian are more than just getting my buttons pushed. I don't respect her knowledge and therefore I don't trust her. Of course I don't think saying that to her will help.

Jesus.

On the plus side I biked to and from the appointment using the route I had tested out on Saturday. Oh yeah, and I have a workout from yesterday to post.

[Espi]

If someone had pushed carbs in the form of grains into my face as much as she would, we would have had a cat fight! Grains are by no means an optimal carb choice, unless they would be non-glutinous grains.

But in other ways I can see why they 'push' grains.. it's the norm. So is not eating much protein.

But I'll just say , she's re-tar-ded. Sorry.

[kfisherx]

Yeah... This is going to be a tough one unfortunately. It's almost better to know nothing at all than to know so much about nutrition as you do. In my experience, if you have actually read Girth Control or Lyle's or Jamie's articles even, you know more than most nutritionists do about how the rubber meets the road. They have good book knowledge, but they are also stuck on the book knowledge and not moving past that into the real time studies or even the analysis of the studies.

Unfortunately that is the way it is. Fortunately I don't think it really matters all that much for what you are trying to acheive. You are trying to combat binging not fine tune strength or get shredded while keeping strength or anything like that. Honestly, you can probably do the job with less protein overall for awhile and even with grains or more carbs... Or at least experience the program in their way with little to no damage. Perhaps the benefits outweigh the cost in this case?

I don't know honestly, just saying how I would try to analyse what to do in your shoes....

[Espi]

Good point, Karla. As long as grains don't pose health threats (like they do for me & quite a lot of others), it's not the end of the world to incorporate them.. esp not when you are allowed to avoid wheat.

[Gen]

I had a similar problem with an optometrist last week. Similar but not the same because I don't know more than her or even as much as her, but I did feel as if she wasn't being straight with me.

I think this is the problem: people who work with the general public tend to boil things down to the point of being just wrong. They don't bother giving you all the information because most people wouldn't understand at all and it's easier to just say "because I said so." That doesn't work for people like you and me. I tend to dig my heels in; I hate when people aren't straight with me. I have a brain, let me use it!

That said, I like this point a whole lot:

Originally Posted by kfisherx

Unfortunately that is the way it is. Fortunately I don't think it really matters all that much for what you are trying to acheive. You are trying to combat binging not fine tune strength or get shredded while keeping strength or anything like that. Honestly, you can probably do the job with less protein overall for awhile and even with grains or more carbs... Or at least experience the program in their way with little to no damage. Perhaps the benefits outweigh the cost in this case?

[CloveApple]

Originally Posted by Fang

When I first started this whole fitness thing, three years ago, I did Body for Life for 3 months, lost 12 pounds and then kind of collapsed--workouts 6 days a week were too much for me. It took me a long time to figure out how to lose weight, I kept doing the whole fist/palm thing and it wasn't 'til I came to this site that I figured out how to actually lose fat, with the help of Leigh and Jane and others. But during that whole period--I guess it was over a year--I ate 6 times a day religiously and became a genius at maintaining. At the time, I was terribly frustrated, but in retrospect it allowed me to feel what it's like to have steady blood sugar levels, and to eat healthily without my former freaky binges. In fact I told one of my clients recently that I wanted her to just eat at maintenance, healthy food, because her eating habits are totally bizarre and I want her to understand what it's like to nourish oneself without the pressure of "dieting" all the time.

I'm not sure I've ever maintained in any sane kind of way. I was actually aiming at maintenance when I first started losing weight. I was trying out an eating system called DASH to get my blood pressure down and my weight started dropping. Funny thing is it freaked me out and it was quite awhile before weight loss became an acknowledged goal.

Originally Posted by Fang

I picked up a book called "The Craving Brain" at the library day before yesterday and I read it cover to cover last night because I was so fascinated by the author's assertions on addictions--that the "craving" of addiction is an ancient survival mechanism running amok. It broke down the whole question of an "addictive personality" (I am one) in such a clear manner that I am still reeling from it. I won't attempt to summarize it here but I can say that it has had a profound impact on how I view my past life--which was pretty insane. Anyway, I wanted to mention it to you because it might be useful to you--he's a doctor in NYC--Ronald Ruden.

Thanks, I'll have to check it out.

Originally Posted by Fang

And, I wanted to just mention--you were saying that when Karla eats a lot it's an extra apple--NO. I watched her eat a 6'4" dude under the table for three days straight. She ordered and ate TWO meals right in front of me twice, and she did NOT seem to be suffering. But then, she also lifted, ran, worked out with the group, and stayed up all night drinking, so she's not exactly um....(normal).

Luckily normal is pretty overrated. I think I may have stated that extra apple business badly, in which case sorry Karla.

Originally Posted by kfisherx

Sorry I threw ya for a spin Jennifer. It is really hard to imagine what it must be like to be in the other place....

Not a problem.

Originally Posted by beesknees

Just catching up...

When I moved from Uptown to a suburb, I once biked around for 30 minutes trying to find access to a bike trail. I remember being so frustrated being able to see it, but not knowing where to get to it. Grrr. So I can relate

Yeah, it's a crazy design. I've been thinking about it alot and it seems to me that it reflects a way of looking at biking. If you look at it as pure recreation/exercise then it's normal to maybe drive to an entrance and then bike a path to nowhere and back the same way you would swim laps or run on a track. If you look at that same trail as transportation then you want lots of entrances and exits and you want it to go places.

Originally Posted by beesknees

Not much to add about the food stuff. Hope you are still moving forward.

LOL, it's a bit hard to tell what direction is forward some days, but I'm definitely moving.

Originally Posted by Espi

If someone had pushed carbs in the form of grains into my face as much as she would, we would have had a cat fight! Grains are by no means an optimal carb choice, unless they would be non-glutinous grains.

But in other ways I can see why they 'push' grains.. it's the norm. So is not eating much protein.

But I'll just say , she's re-tar-ded. Sorry.

I was too dumbfounded to say all that much. I think that you're right that it's about what's the norm and in my case anything that doesn't fit that norm is seen as part of the eating disorder.

As far as her being a bit dense, if we're gonna dive for the insults can we go with stupid, or just plain dumb? I work with retarded people and I respect some of them way more than I'm respecting her right now.

[Espi]

OK.. yep, just dumb fits the bill better.

And indeed, in some ways the fitness-oriented person does find him/herself entangled into a maze that can become an actual eating disorder on their own, best known under the name 'orthorexia'.
Been thinking about it for over an hour now & part of the reason for my vehement respoonse is having a rather special food intolerance & knowing this makes me want to stay away from foods that make me sick. They also happen to make me overeat, so in that sense it felt like she'd suggest a really crazy thing: eating the very foods that make me overeat.
But that doesn't mean YOU would have the very same experience.

Re bike paths, right on.. I see cycling as a means of transportation first & then as recreation second. Having a bike path all fenced off makes no sense at all & feels dangerous too.

[Etana]

So what else will you get from the program that you might find value in? Other than the nutritionist and her 1-size-fits-all diet? How long is the program again?

So if her dietary program is one program, and you go on it for the duration of the program, will there be enough else that you respect, that you think you can learn?

I have to say, I've been loving my 5-day deficit, 2 day maintenance program. I'm really getting weekly practice in maintenance, including "mistakes," and I'm also doing deficit.

But this could be a great opportunity for you to learn a lot about yourself. I can understand the view that you need to follow their program and not bargain or bring what you know into the picture, because I know that bargaining against what a coach might tell me is so human... remember that I didn't want to follow Leigh's advice to stop Jazzercise for a while. So surrendering totally and seeing what you learn is a success and learning experience in and of itself.

[CloveApple]

Originally Posted by kfisherx

Yeah... This is going to be a tough one unfortunately. It's almost better to know nothing at all than to know so much about nutrition as you do. In my experience, if you have actually read Girth Control or Lyle's or Jamie's articles even, you know more than most nutritionists do about how the rubber meets the road. They have good book knowledge, but they are also stuck on the book knowledge and not moving past that into the real time studies or even the analysis of the studies.

Unfortunately that is the way it is. Fortunately I don't think it really matters all that much for what you are trying to acheive. You are trying to combat binging not fine tune strength or get shredded while keeping strength or anything like that. Honestly, you can probably do the job with less protein overall for awhile and even with grains or more carbs... Or at least experience the program in their way with little to no damage. Perhaps the benefits outweigh the cost in this case?

I don't know honestly, just saying how I would try to analyse what to do in your shoes....

Yeah, I feel like it would be easier to go into this situation much more ignorant. As it is there is so much about nutrition I'd say I still don't know. But I do know a fair amount, or at least enough to know that some of the stuff she's said is ...well, to be charitable we'll call it silly.

Actually it was equally frustrating to me that while I knew that some of what she said was wrong I couldn't necessarily explain why it was wrong (not saying I'm intending to tell her, I just like stuff clear in my own head). Unfortunately I can't refresh my memory as I've lent out the book I'd look it up in.

I think you're right that the benefits might outweigh the cost. At least that's what I'm trying to decide. So the question is can I stand being talked down to once a week and just bite my tongue if it means getting other things I find helpful? Unfortunately when I'm stressed my ability to bite my tongue gets significantly worse so I might not be able to pull that off. (I think there's a very good chance that I'm a pain in the ass to work with right now.)

Originally Posted by Espi

Good point, Karla. As long as grains don't pose health threats (like they do for me & quite a lot of others), it's not the end of the world to incorporate them.. esp not when you are allowed to avoid wheat.

Nope, no wheat intolerance that I'm aware of.

Originally Posted by Gen

I had a similar problem with an optometrist last week. Similar but not the same because I don't know more than her or even as much as her, but I did feel as if she wasn't being straight with me.

I think this is the problem: people who work with the general public tend to boil things down to the point of being just wrong. They don't bother giving you all the information because most people wouldn't understand at all and it's easier to just say "because I said so." That doesn't work for people like you and me. I tend to dig my heels in; I hate when people aren't straight with me. I have a brain, let me use it!

That said, I like this point a whole lot:

Yup, I'm definitely reacting to some of this by digging in my heels. I'd much rather have the complicated explanation. Even if I don't understand all of it I prefer it to feeling talked down to or told stuff that isn't quite true. You're right though that what she is telling me and how she is approaching me is probably just right for a huge percentage of the people she deals with.

Originally Posted by Espi

OK.. yep, just dumb fits the bill better.

And indeed, in some ways the fitness-oriented person does find him/herself entangled into a maze that can become an actual eating disorder on their own, best known under the name 'orthorexia'.

Some of my eating issues could probably fit under that label. I find it very difficult to eat food that I haven't prepared myself or that doesn't have a nutritional label.

Originally Posted by Espi

Been thinking about it for over an hour now & part of the reason for my vehement response is having a rather special food intolerance & knowing this makes me want to stay away from foods that make me sick. They also happen to make me overeat, so in that sense it felt like she'd suggest a really crazy thing: eating the very foods that make me overeat.
But that doesn't mean YOU would have the very same experience.

*nods* I can see how that would make for a strong reaction. I know that at least part of my own reaction to her suggestion of lowering protein and jacking carbs and grains way up was that I didn't do at all well on that sort of mix the last time I tried it. (Before I sought out Alan I was eating DASH style which meant lower fat and lots and lots of whole grains. Here's a government pdf for the curious.)

As it is I have raised my carbs up some, but then that tends to happen naturally when I raise my calories to maintenance.

Originally Posted by Espi

Re bike paths, right on.. I see cycling as a means of transportation first & then as recreation second. Having a bike path all fenced off makes no sense at all & feels dangerous too.

Yes, being fenced in makes me feel vulnerable. It seems like an ideal set up for a mugging. I don't go near fenced in routes at night. I'd rather risk city traffic. During the day there's enough bike traffic that I feel safe on the fenced in bike trails and commuter bike paths.

[fengshway]

((((jennifer)))) unless you have a medical condition diagnosed by a physician whereby you should avoid grains, learning to eat and not limit all kinds of foods is part of the recovery process. I think the dietician explained it in a clumsy way. early on in the recovery process, it is tempting to reject the process and the people involved in the process. it is all part of the resistance to treatment. and it is completely normal. this journey is not about the food, as much as it is about the feelings behind the food, the binge, the whatever. keep going even when you want to run. what is happening to you is part of the process. you can do this.

[LisaS]

Originally Posted by CloveApple

Yup, I'm definitely reacting to some of this by digging in my heels.

This you can recognize and work on. I really like what Wendy said on this.

Originally Posted by CloveApple

I'd much rather have the complicated explanation. Even if I don't understand all of it I prefer it to feeling talked down to or told stuff that isn't quite true. You're right though that what she is telling me and how she is approaching me is probably just right for a huge percentage of the people she deals with.

This however -- this I think you need to bring to her attention and let her know the dynamic isn't working for you.

On your side, it sounds like you want to be able to commit to the program as given as long as you hear real information and not the watered-down generic explanations for things.

You need to find a way to communicate to her that you want the real information not a version pitched at the 5th grade level. For example, there is no physiological need for dietary carbohydrate (assuming adequate calories). Given that, you want to hear her say things like Wendy has just said about embracing all foods as part of recovery, not inaccuracies about needing to eat carbs for carbs sake.

Or else you need to trust the program and just tune her out when she is on the "nutrition education" horse and tune back in when she is talking about disordered eating.

Me - I'd have to know she was giving me the straight scoop across the board or I would tend to not trust her in areas where I didn't already know the score. Once there is trust, you can later go little or no explanations - i.e. on "because I said so" - but without trust, not so much. (just my opinion of course).

[CloveApple]

Originally Posted by Etana

So what else will you get from the program that you might find value in? Other than the nutritionist and her 1-size-fits-all diet? How long is the program again?

So if her dietary program is one program, and you go on it for the duration of the program, will there be enough else that you respect, that you think you can learn?

A lot of what I would be getting is pretty therapy-ish in a very practical here-and-now sort of way (in other words cognitive behavioral stuff).

If I stay with this place but don't go the intensive route the additional stuff (besides meeting with the dietitian once a week and following her food plan) would be meeting once a week with a therapist who's focus is eating stuff.

If I do the more intensive route, it's those two things plus 3 mornings a week of group stuff which includes more cognitive behavioral stuff (CBT), an actual meal, and more nutritional education.

3 of those things sound useful to me: the counselor, the CBT approach, and the actual meal. The meal bit may sound silly (I had one person laugh when I told them that bit), but the point is that I have trouble eating in normal social situations where I can't know exactly what's in the food.

How long:
If I just see the dietitian and the counselor for their two separate weekly appointments there's no set duration. (This is more or less the current set up though sometimes I might get in less often.)

If I officially enter the more intensive program it's a 3 month minimum commitment.

Originally Posted by fengshway

((((jennifer)))) unless you have a medical condition diagnosed by a physician whereby you should avoid grains, learning to eat and not limit all kinds of foods is part of the recovery process. I think the dietician explained it in a clumsy way. early on in the recovery process, it is tempting to reject the process and the people involved in the process. it is all part of the resistance to treatment. and it is completely normal. this journey is not about the food, as much as it is about the feelings behind the food, the binge, the whatever. keep going even when you want to run. what is happening to you is part of the process. you can do this.

I'm on board with not restricting foods for arbitrary reasons and I get that the emotional force behind some of my food choices is stronger than makes sense. I'm not sure if she was explaining things clumsily (my hope) or whether she literally believes that grains are necessary to the body at every meal. Unfortunately, I think it's likely that it's the second.

You're right that some of my reactions are because this stuff sucks to work on. I'm human. Humans don't like to change even when it's for their benefit. So I'm going to resist some perfectly valid suggestions and prescriptions. But it's not all about a negative kind of resistance. I understand that's the lens it's going to be viewed through, but under the best of circumstances I'd still be severely unimpressed by somebody who didn't seem to know basic facts in their own field and didn't seem aware of that gap.

(I remember annoying a teacher in grade school by insisting that it mattered that spiders weren't insects and that our workbook was wrong. Yup, I was that kid.)

As it is none of the reasons given by the dietitian so far make sense to me. In contrast, when the therapist insisted that I needed to eat at maintenance she was ready to back herself up. And after listening to her and reading the article she gave me I switched to aiming for maintenance calories. Not saying I didn't grumble, but I switched.

Originally Posted by LisaS

This you can recognize and work on. I really like what Wendy said on this.

This however -- this I think you need to bring to her attention and let her know the dynamic isn't working for you.

On your side, it sounds like you want to be able to commit to the program as given as long as you hear real information and not the watered-down generic explanations for things.

You need to find a way to communicate to her that you want the real information not a version pitched at the 5th grade level. For example, there is no physiological need for dietary carbohydrate (assuming adequate calories). Given that, you want to hear her say things like Wendy has just said about embracing all foods as part of recovery, not inaccuracies about needing to eat carbs for carbs sake.

Or else you need to trust the program and just tune her out when she is on the "nutrition education" horse and tune back in when she is talking about disordered eating.

Me - I'd have to know she was giving me the straight scoop across the board or I would tend to not trust her in areas where I didn't already know the score. Once there is trust, you can later go little or no explanations - i.e. on "because I said so" - but without trust, not so much. (just my opinion of course).

Right now I'm not sure whether she was giving me what she considers literally factual information or whether she was automatically simplifying it. If she was simplifying, then I think I can get it across that I need a different style. If she was speaking the literal truth as she sees it then I'm not going to be able to make that trust jump. At least not with her.

Which doesn't mean I'll quit working on this stuff. It just means I may have to pause and rethink. (Which I may have to do anyway since I just found out that the insurance option I was planning to go with next year won't exist any longer. I'm still trying to make sense of the new choices.)

[Espi]

I love to see you write those responses as it makes it so much easier to follow you along the process. It's hard to not get a bit of a weird relation with food once you embrace 'eating for fitness /performance' & still remain social.
It's a struggle for many of us.. and actually what you wrote about the meal together is really something I'd want to incorporate as well if I were you.

LOL'd at you correcting the teacher on the spiders. You actually are embarassing me as I forgot about the spiders not being insects too... embarassed because I'm having an MSc. in Entomology! Goes on to show how much I forgot & how much you already knew as a kid.

From wiki

Anatomically, spiders differ from other arthropods in that the usual body segments are fused into two tagmata, the cephalothorax and abdomen, and joined by a small, cylindrical pedicel. Unlike insects, spiders do not have antennae.

Keep on going girl! I do hope you get to a better level of communication & henceforth trust with that dietician. Crossing fingers it will happen for you.

Still, a closing remark or 2.. I do think some things will not change as much. While I personally don't get the uncontrolled binges I used to get when still way more insulin resistant and trying to VLC while training hard.. I still have that impossibility to feel satiated once I do start eating a lot. And still yearn for feeling 'full' .. it just rarely if ever happens that I eat beyond feeling full, unless SAD hits me hard..yay for daylight spectrum bulbs.

[CloveApple]

Life in general sucks right now. It all feels like walking in heavy mud with no particular reason for moving forward. I know intellectually that I'll get through it, but I can't see my way clear right now.

Talked to Alan some yesterday which helped. (I'd been waiting till after his monthly AARR madness.) I'm doing my best to muddle through, but I'm not very impressed with my best right now. Still, it's what I got.

I know stuff could be so much worse. I see people around me struggling with worse. But at the same time I just don't have the energy. It would be nice to be about 5 right now and not have to deal with this being an adult bullshit.

[Gen]

I know that feeling. Believe me, it does help that you intellectually know it'll pass, and you're right about that. (((hugs)))

[CloveApple]

Thanks Espi & Gen.

I'm not going to try to really answer your posts now but I appreciate them. I'm home sick yesterday evening and today and not making a ton of sense. On the plus side people pay good money for recreational drugs to be this out of it, and I've gotten lots of neat with all the full body alimentary canal exercises I've been doing. The bug even thoughtfully waited for my days off so I wouldn't miss so much work.

[misstenacity]

Hope you're feeling better! And, you definitely said with perfect perspective that things will improve even if its hard to see that in the future. Take care of yourself.

Originally Posted by CloveApple

I've gotten lots of neat with all the full body alimentary canal exercises I've been doing.

This quote is GOLDEN.

[Espi]

That's a very polite way to describe having intestinal problems.

[kfisherx]

Originally Posted by Espi

That's a very polite way to describe having intestinal problems.

x2. I giggled when I read it though I am not at all giggling about the fact that you are down. I hope things get better for you soon!

[realcdn]

I'm behind on everyone's log, but hoping that you're better by now!

[CloveApple]

Originally Posted by misstenacity

Hope you're feeling better! And, you definitely said with perfect perspective that things will improve even if its hard to see that in the future. Take care of yourself.



This quote is GOLDEN.

Originally Posted by Espi

That's a very polite way to describe having intestinal problems.

Originally Posted by kfisherx

x2. I giggled when I read it though I am not at all giggling about the fact that you are down. I hope things get better for you soon!

Originally Posted by realcdn

I'm behind on everyone's log, but hoping that you're better by now!

Thanks guys. Feeling better flu-wise. Other stuff has been a bit of a roller coaster over the last 3 or 4 weeks.

After one final attempt to communicate, I quit trying to work with the dietitian. It was just generating an unbelievable amount of stress without being helpful. All our attempts at communication have been pretty much train wrecks.

For what it's worth I did clarify what she meant about grains. She agreed that grains are not a physiological necessity, but said that carbs are and that the main source of carbs are grains.

She wanted me to have about 6-7 servings of grains a day (plus any grains that fell into their daily dessert category, plus any starches or grains that fell into their vegetable category.) Nothing radical there, standard pyramid stuff, but also an eating style that worked very badly for me in the past whenever I was working out at all. (I fully admit that I never worked out the exact details of why it worked badly. I just knew that when I switched to Alan's original food plan that I quit crashing after workouts.) But in any case my experiences with DASH made me more than a little reluctant to duplicate that eating pattern without a damn good reason or at least a decent theory.

In any case I talked to Alan after I had decided not to work with her. He updated my old plan for roughly current maintenance calories and some added starchiness. (Damn I owe him beyond words.)

Can't say yet how the person I'm working with at the Emily Program will react to my not working with their dietitian. I haven't been able to see her for about a month. (I've learned that unless you schedule stuff there way way in advance you often have no chance at an appointment.) And then my last appointment got canceled for unknown reasons on their end. Sucks because my doctor is waiting to run some stuff by them before he moves ahead on some medical stuff I need now.

Work has been freaking crazy. Resignations (tearful or otherwise), a bizarre revenge attempt between coworkers, an unusually high level of client feuding...

On the plus side, at my last doctor's appointment he ran a bunch of blood tests. I don't have all the details (he usually mails those) but he called to let me know thyroid and everything else was normal.

I guess that's the cliff notes version of my life.

And now for something fun, here's a song to play:
http://www.jonathancoulton.com/ songdetails/Baby%20Got%20Back

[CloveApple]

Monday 11-23-09

my session with Andrew

burpees: 10
assisted pullups: assist of 100 (10/7) ? (0)
. Not sure what assist was on 3rd set. In any case I had nothing. Totally jelly arms.
squat: 35 (12) 40 (12/12)
bench press: 55 (10/9/7)
hip sled: 50 (10L,10R) 80 (10L,10R/10L,10R)
kneeling reverse chop: 10#med ball (15L,15R)
BD triceps kickback w/ball: 12 (10L,10R)
(Stuff was roughly in the order listed except I think pullups were superset w/squat, hip sled superset w/hip sled.)

then on my own: 30 minutes on the ARC w/heart rate monitor
. 5 minute warmup (100-120)
. 6 min @ 125-145
. sprints repeat 3x:
. . 1 min @ 155-170
. . 2 min @ 135-155
. 5 min @ 125-1455
. 5 min cool down (100-120)

then some stretching & biked home

Tuesday 11-24-09
Just a short (under 30 minute) bike ride, more to clear my head than anything else.

Wednesday 11-25-09
50 minute bike ride with heart monitor. It was barely sprinkling when I left but I was soaked through by the time I got home. I almost turned around when my hands started hurting from cold but then I double layered some gloves and did fine. Actually kind of a fun ride. My heart rate was mostly low 100s with some higher stuff going into the wind and a high of 164 limping over a bike overpass against the wind.

[missjane]

Happy Thanksgiving!