My eats over the weekend weren't great, unfortunately--too much socalizing.
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Originally Posted by Kirjava
I have to admit I'm starting to think about changing exercise programs, from NROL4W to the NROL' s fatloss (the book is on the order). It's just that this program isn't a weight loss program and well, I need to lose weight....
Putting these quotes together, is it possible that you might want to look at your food intake, rather than your exercise program? I don't have the NROL4W book in front of me, but from what I remember the programs in it are roughly similar to NROL's fat loss programs in that supersets work unrelated muscle groups.
And as for stretching, perhaps some mobility exercises might help.
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Tom
No "happy hours" makes for a lot of miserable days. - Mahler
Putting these quotes together, is it possible that you might want to look at your food intake, rather than your exercise program? I don't have the NROL4W book in front of me, but from what I remember the programs in it are roughly similar to NROL's fat loss programs in that supersets work unrelated muscle groups.
And as for stretching, perhaps some mobility exercises might help.
Tom, thanks a lot for the thoughts. You're right--diet is an area of struggle for me, always. I don't usually have problems with the exercise bits; it's the food that I fight with.
My only concern with NROL4W is that there is not enough cardio in it, and that I need cardio to loss fat. So doing the weights workouts in it, but with more cardio in between weights might work:
Sample:
Monday:NROL4W workout A
Tuesday: HITT followed by s.s cardio
Wednesday:NROL4W workout B, HITT
Thursday:s.s cardio
Friday:NROL4W workout A
Saturday:HITT followed s.s. cardio
Sunday: off
I also think I might need to go back to weightwatchers. It's the only program that has helped me lose weight in the past. However, I would be following the Core program, which means that you can eat until satisfaction approved "core" foods, and have to count points for non-core foods. That means I could eat until satisfaction stuff like like protein, fruits, veggies, legumes, etc, and would have to count points for stuff like breads, nuts, full-fat dairy, protein powder, etc. The difference is primarily core foods are unprocessed and have a low calorie density, versus non-core foods are more processed and more calorie dense. The good thing about the core program is that it emphasizes the need to learn your body's hunger cues, and you really can only eat until satisfaction. I did it in the past and it made me pay more attention. So I am still thinking about it, but think I might want to go back to the that program for a few months.
If you're going to change your food to WW, then perhaps you don't need to add to the workouts yet or change to NROL. It may be that only the diet is slowing down the results you want to see.
And I think 3 sessions of HIIT may be too many and may not give your body enough time to recover. Perhaps stay with HIIT the days after workout B and use only steady-state cardio on days after workout A? (Maybe add one more HIIT session in weeks with two "A" workouts?)
Before NROL4W I was doing NROL. I did FLI and FLII and had very little weight change. It wasn't until I was really dialed in on my diet did I achieve fatloss, which was in January when I started NROL4W. Diet is KEY.
I don 't know the programs of NROL, but I think the women's version should work for fatloss! I just builds up quite steadily. I finished stage 1, and already see changes in my body. In stage 2, some HIIT is added, which is a good thing. You 're already arriving at stage 3, and from what I heard, that 's quite tuff on the "cardiovascular" side... You surely can add some more cardio if you need to, but be careful not to overtrain yourself!
Diet is a major key in losing fat. I know for myself, that if I would be stricter, I would lose fat (and weight probably too) much quicker. So cleaning up your eats could help a lot! I never heard of this core program of WW, it sounds good!
Before NROL4W I was doing NROL. I did FLI and FLII and had very little weight change. It wasn't until I was really dialed in on my diet did I achieve fatloss, which was in January when I started NROL4W. Diet is KEY.
ONE THOUSAND percent agree. 90% of your results, or thereabouts, can be traced back to diet.
Sucks.
My only concern with NROL4W is that there is not enough cardio in it, and that I need cardio to loss fat.
Or, you could just take in less calories. The only way I could justify cardiovascular training is for exactly that - training your heart and lungs - not for fat loss.
__________________
Tom
No "happy hours" makes for a lot of miserable days. - Mahler
Before NROL4W I was doing NROL. I did FLI and FLII and had very little weight change. It wasn't until I was really dialed in on my diet did I achieve fatloss, which was in January when I started NROL4W. Diet is KEY.
Jane, how did you make your diet work? What are your guidelines?
Jane, how did you make your diet work? What are your guidelines?
I am doing TNT and averaging a little over 1 lb of fat loss per week.
However, the key is choosing a nutrition plan that is right for you and STICKING to it! That's why I truly feel I've been successful. It's been my ability to stay true to my nutrition. The lifting is supplementing all of that and is icing on the cake. Plus, I feel great.
And I think 3 sessions of HIIT may be too many and may not give your body enough time to recover. Perhaps stay with HIIT the days after workout B and use only steady-state cardio on days after workout A? (Maybe add one more HIIT session in weeks with two "A" workouts?)
I agree--even as I was typing it out, I felt like that was too much HITT. After all, my body gets really sore from those workouts! It was the feverish, "must lose weight before summer" part of me that was typing it out.
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Originally Posted by missjane
Cardio isn't the solution. It's diet.
I know--it's just that I was looking over my old workout/exercise logs last night and the times I was at my leanest I was doing a lot of cardio. But I think I have been letting cardio mask my bad eating habits. Now that I've cut back the cardio, the bad eating habits are standing exposed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by climban
I don 't know the programs of NROL, but I think the women's version should work for fatloss! I just builds up quite steadily. I finished stage 1, and already see changes in my body. In stage 2, some HIIT is added, which is a good thing. You 're already arriving at stage 3, and from what I heard, that 's quite tuff on the "cardiovascular" side... You surely can add some more cardio if you need to, but be careful not to overtrain yourself!
Yes, I'm looking forward to stage 3! I like the workouts, I don't really want to change exercise programs. If it worked for fat loss, then I'd really love it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stingo
Or, you could just take in less calories. The only way I could justify cardiovascular training is for exactly that - training your heart and lungs - not for fat loss.
I guess I haven't been sure that less calories is key--I keep hearing these dire warnings about dropping too low. After all, according to NROL4W I should be eating 1700 cals on nonlifting days and 1900 cals on lifting days. Right now I am averaging between 1500 and 1900 cals a day, and thats with a lot of activity--miles of walking to and from work, walking my dog, doing the weights workouts with HITT afterwards, and was leery of dropping it too low. But I guess that's what I really have to do. I just find it very hard to stick to a target. I find if I don't eat I get dizzy and nausous, and it is difficult to scale back my intake. However, maybe I should aim for 1400 cals for non lifting days and 1600 for lifting days. Yes, that's really low, relatively speaking, but maybe that's just what my body needs. After all, I do have PCOs and women with this condition seem to just need to eat less food, unfortunately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by missjane
I am doing TNT and averaging a little over 1 lb of fat loss per week.
However, the key is choosing a nutrition plan that is right for you and STICKING to it! That's why I truly feel I've been successful. It's been my ability to stay true to my nutrition. The lifting is supplementing all of that and is icing on the cake. Plus, I feel great.
I have been having difficulty in sticking with anything. Especially on weekend nights. I am pretty good during the week and have been been caving so badly. I mean, it's not like I'm doing anything crazy like eating huge slabs of cake or anything--my highest cal intake would still be no more than 2200, but clearly that is just way too much for me.
I appreciate everybody's input on this--thanks so much. Amazing how even though I lose the bulk of my weight four years ago and thought I was "done", this is clearly a lifelong battle.
You know, you may need to tweak some things to get to your goal. I'm not saying you can't get to your goals, strictly following this plan but I think that as long as you are listening to your body and not overtraining, you can add in some cardio. I do agree that diet is a huge part of this process, but I am also adding in some more cardio than what is laid out in the book and I don't feel like I am hindering anything.
Just thought I would throw in my two cents, too.
__________________
Ginger
"The miracle isn't that I finished. The miracle is that I had the courage to start." ~ John Bingham
I'll use this weekend as a good example, because I was socalizing every night.
Friday night:
The plan: a good dinner of grilled chicken, big salad with walnuts, feta, avocado
The extras: a small handful of potato chips, two big handfuls of popcorn, two squares of dark chocolate
Saturday night:
The plan: baked pesto chicken with roasted potatoes, a glass of red wine, big salad
The extras: probably 4 squares of dark chocolate, a handful of tortilla chips (maybe 10?) and salsa, another glass of wine (or two?)
Sunday night:
The plan: thin crust pizza topped with feta and ground turkey
The extras: a light beer, about 1/2 cup of pistachio nuts (!), two small slices of baguette with hummus, two squares of dark chocolate, a handful of tortilla chips
All of your extras are carb-based. Carbs raise your blood sugar levels, which causes your body to produce insulin to move it out of the blood stream. If your muscles have all the glycogen they need, the carbs get converted into fat. Additionally, I understand alcohol is a priority call - the body takes care of detoxifying first before other activities.
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Tom
No "happy hours" makes for a lot of miserable days. - Mahler
My bet is that you are understimating how much you are eating now. If you aren't measuring everything it is most probably the case that you are eating more than you think. I agree with what everyone is saying here. You need to hone in the diet. It took me a few months but I have mine very accurately dialed in right now and as such I am now empowered to loose or gain weight depending on what I want to do. This whole "bulking" thing was the best thing I could possibly have done to help me figure this stuff out.
But I think I have been letting cardio mask my bad eating habits. Now that I've cut back the cardio, the bad eating habits are standing exposed.
I understand exactly what you mean. When I used to run 30 miles a week, I took it as permission to eat whatever I wanted. After a 6 or 7 mile run it was pretty easy to justify having cookies or soy ice cream or a huge bowl of tortilla chips. But for all that ridiculous work I was putting in, I wasn't getting anything out of it. Sure I could run forever, but I didn't look like a runner, I looked flabby and felt gross. Once I STOPPED all of the crazy cardio my mindset changed. That is, I knew I wasn't going to go out every morning and burn 700 or 800 calories, so there just was no room to be eating all of that junk. Thinking of it that way has helped tremendously. I don't have the room anymore in my diet to take in all of those useless carbs. And the food I do take in needs to be good food that will help me get stronger.
The food you posted for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday could definitely be affecting your progress. That's a lot of straying! I don't know if you were at home or somewhere else, but if you were at home, you definitely need to stop having tortilla chips stocked in your house. If they aren't there, you won't be able to have them. Same goes for baguettes, and even chocolate. If you decide you want some chocolate, pick up one of those mini, single serving bars, enjoy it, and be done with it.
You don't need to kill yourself with cardio, and it will probably be counterproductive anyway considering that you need the energy to do Alwyn's workouts. You've got to get out of the binge mindset and realize that everything you eat counts for something, and use that to your advantage rather than to your disadvantage!
I just read something recently from Alwyn's blog. He says there's no difference between burning calories off through cardio or not ingesting those calories in the first place. So if you know you need to have a bigger deficit, you've got two options - cut out say, 200 calories worth of food, or burn it.
If you want to eat better around your friends, just pick up some tricks here and there. For instance...I work in advertising and we're doing research for a pitch. My partner and I went to the mall to look at some sales displays. I KNEW we were going to be in dangerous territory, so I grabbed the bag of almonds from my afternoon snack and stuck them in my pocket. Sure enough, we ended up getting smoothies. I drank half a small, knowing it was full of sugar, and ate the almonds at the same time. Maybe I looked a little silly, but 20 minutes later, she was in a full sugar crash and I had stuck to my macros and was within my calorie range.
You can figure this out. You know what you need to do. =o) I'll be keeping an eye on you, since we're both trying to control those calories and shed some fat.
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"Men are taught to apologize for their weaknesses, women for their strengths." - Lois Wyse
For all this talk you're doing about losing weight I don't think you have very far to go at all! The chick in your avitar, which I am assuming is you, looks pretty darn trim! I know that clothes are different baring more skin in a bikini, but still, I don't think you have far to go. That said, I hear ya on being relatively small and still wanting to shed fat. I'm with the majority of people here and vote for changing diet first then implementing cardio if the diet alone is not helping. Now, if I could only take my own advice, I'd be awesome, lol. Seriously though... and maybe it's just because I HATE cardio, but I would go with the diet adjustments first. You're doing amazing with the workouts, and since you already know food is your weak point you should be able to get a handle on it, rather than add more workouts.
Just my two cents :-)
Thanks so much to everybody for all of the advice and support on here--I appreciate it VERY much, and have been doing a lot of thinking about what my "game plan" should be to get a handle on my diet. Because I need to follow guidelines, without which I will stray, I'm following the guidelines in the perfect body diet by Cassandra, because I trust her and because, well, I already own the book. I've been following them loosely that strategy isn't working! lol
So on workout days I'll do: 1600 cals, with 20-30% carbs, 40% fat, 30-35% protein. On non workout days I'll do 1400 cals, with the same macro breakdowns.
I am going to WEIGH AND MEASURE my portions!
If this truly isn't enough food, and I am legimiately starving, then I will eat--but only if I'm truly starving.
Kara, ha ha--that tough chick in the avi is not me! In spirit, but not in reality--but once I have some pics I WILL upload one of me. You're right, I'm not huge--still within my healthy bmi, for whatever it's worth, but my clothes don't fit right anymore and my weight keeps creeping up, which is freaking me out because I know I'm doing something wrong. And it's feeling lousy, really lousy. I'm just perplexed because in the past I was able to maintain my "happy weight" for years, even with splurgey weekends, but, like I said, I was a cardio maniac and maybe I was stricter with portion sizes then I'm being now.
Rixa--keep an eye on me! I need eyes on me!
Marygrace, I definitely don't keep the house stocked with that kind of food--there was just a lot of socializing going on. But whether I'm around that kind of food or not, I still need to be able to *behave*. That's my biggest downfall, that's for sure. Unfortunately, even when I've been really "good" then I think on the weekends I'm "allowed" to just relax with it. However, this conversation I hope has really hammered in the fact that that so-called strategy is just a self-defeating mindset.
Of course, I have my challenge cut out for me because tonight I head to my folks house for the long weekend, and there's is a house full of delectable food goodness. It's even healthy food--there's just lots of it, everywhere, and my mom is a fantabulous cook and delights in serving up the best meals ever.
However, I'm feeling sufficiently motivated right now, and even into biting my teeth (figuratively) into that challenge and seeing how I fare.
Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this conversation--it has been so helpful for me.
This log is really interesting to me, because I've often wondered about PCOS. I've been on the Pill since I was 14 because my periods are incredibly painful and really heavy, I've always struggled with my weight, and I have (I would say) more hair than a normal woman on my chin and neck. However, my gyno says to test for it, I'd have to go off the pill (and isn't it part of the treatment for PCOS anyway?). And I eat generally a pretty low-carb diet (I could go days without grains if I had to) because my blood sugar will shoot around like a firecracker if I let it. So I don't really know!
I'm starting my "cut", which sounds so much cooler than "diet". I'm doing 2-3 days at 1600, then a day at 1900, repeat. Every 4-5 weeks, I'll do a three day refeed at 2500. Let the games begin!
And if you don't have a cute little digital kitchen scale, get one! I love mine. Sometimes it tells me I'm UNDERESTIMATING my portions and I get to eat more. I think I'm going to name it. Maybe even make it godfather to a future child.
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"Men are taught to apologize for their weaknesses, women for their strengths." - Lois Wyse
There....that's me in my avi!
Though it's a kind of funny picture, what with the winter toque and all....when I have a better photo, preferably sans toque, will post it!
I find that if I cut carbs too low that I tank really quickly. I generally do not cut carbs much for that reason. 40,40,20 (fat is 20) seems to work pretty nicely for me.
Food really is key. I had a friend in town for a long weekend. From Friday morning to Monday night, we ate like crap. My macros were out, along with any sence of will power. We had late-night bacon Sunday. Why? Because we were planning to go out for breakfast Monday morning and had to finish the bacon. Why? I don't know, but it seemed right at the time. I'm paying for it now though. Two days later, and I'm still crazy bloated and up about 3 pounds (yesterday it was at 5 pounds, so a lot of it is water, but I'm certain not all of it is). Finding the right macros and sticking to it really does help, even if we do fall off the plan every now and then.
I totally agree with rixatrix, if you can bring something with you when you go out, you might be more likely to eat that instead of whatever else is available. When I visit my parents, I bring my own snacks with me. They love their junkfood. I'll never understand how ice cream and pretzels make a good combo, but my dad has it almost every night.
Good luck with the new plan. Keep us posted on how it's working!
And another perspective.. perhaps you're not eating enough on workout days?
I find the difference of 1700 /1900 abysmally small. Right now I'm on a 16 day cutting period (follows the cycle) which has me eat approx. 1300 on rest days and 2200-2400 kcal on work out days. Often times I'll take a part of the extra kcals the night before as a carb-up.
Going slightly below maintenance every day means that it is not so difficult to adhere to on most days, but it also means that it is very easy to get above maintenance overall. Especially when you eat more in the weekends.
With my approach, I get a chance to eat some goodies every other day, which also happens to be a workout day. Which also helps with better blood sugar balance.
And yes, I have to agree with the others. For the longest time I'd think that working out really hard (both weight training & cardio) would help me lose weight. It didn't . ALl it did, was burning me out and practially forcing me to binge. Poliquin likes to say 'there is no overtraining, only undereating'. Well, it's hard to out-eat a too hard training regime.
Another even more important quote (dunno who said it): "You can't out-train a crappy diet!"
When I finally dropped down training volume & intensitiy, it was way easier to eat less overall and ... tada, I dropped weight fairly easily. Especially can recommend zigzagging calories and eat at mtn on WO days and quite far below on rest days.
ETA: on macro ratios.. you've got to find your own preference. My own preference (meaning that my body thrives on it) seems to be 30% carbs, 30% protein , 40% fats. I'm no longer able to go as low in the carbs as before, but shudder to think about lowering fats to 30% or less as a lot of people do. Workout days are more like 40-30-30 or 33-33-33, rest days more like 20-40-40.
Oh.. and regarding the chocolate : even on an 1100kcal day I manage to eat 2 mini-squares (2x4g) of dark chocolate with my coffee. The secret is to plan, plan and plan more. All of the food.. including the cheats you know you will be eating and don't plan having.
Eating foods that aren't considered 100% 'clean'but planning them is incredibly empowering and can help in adhering to plan.
There's 1 caveat. I do notice that it's easier to stick to plan nowadays. Somehow, carbs no longer have as much of an effect on me. People who have a way higher bf% do very poorly on a diet that allows for too many carbs. Even the more plain rice cakes can't be eaten in moderation. Never mind cookies or potato crisps. That's why leaner people do better on high carb diets since carbs satisify them.. less lean people just don't feel as satisfied on carbs and do better on a higher fat diet. But even then, there can be space for a little treat here & there.
Be safe and chose the treats wisely though. E.g. only dark chocolate, not white or milk. Single serving packages.. e.g. the mini-cups of Häagen Dazs ice cream are a blessing. etc.
This log is really interesting to me, because I've often wondered about PCOS. I've been on the Pill since I was 14 because my periods are incredibly painful and really heavy, I've always struggled with my weight, and I have (I would say) more hair than a normal woman on my chin and neck. However, my gyno says to test for it, I'd have to go off the pill (and isn't it part of the treatment for PCOS anyway?). And I eat generally a pretty low-carb diet (I could go days without grains if I had to) because my blood sugar will shoot around like a firecracker if I let it. So I don't really know!
I'm starting my "cut", which sounds so much cooler than "diet". I'm doing 2-3 days at 1600, then a day at 1900, repeat. Every 4-5 weeks, I'll do a three day refeed at 2500. Let the games begin!
And if you don't have a cute little digital kitchen scale, get one! I love mine. Sometimes it tells me I'm UNDERESTIMATING my portions and I get to eat more. I think I'm going to name it. Maybe even make it godfather to a future child.
Rixa, PCOs is tough thing to diagnose because hormonal levels fluctuate so much, and also, it varies wildly from woman to woman. The thing is, even if you went off the pill, did the bloodwork and found you had PCOs, they would probably just put you back on the pill again (a popular, though not necessarily great way to deal with it). Another way is to get an ultrasound and check out the status on your ovaries. I would recommend getting the tests done at some point just so you know, but chances are you've been having these chat with your doc already.
I am SO getting a cute little scale! I can never have too many cute appliances. If Tracey's a tea pusher, then you're definitely a scale pusher.
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Originally Posted by dillytl
That WILL be you!!!
Tracey, you're the best. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by kfisherx
I find that if I cut carbs too low that I tank really quickly. I generally do not cut carbs much for that reason. 40,40,20 (fat is 20) seems to work pretty nicely for me.
Right now I'm going to keep the carbs low, because like Rixa, I zing out on too many carbs. And it leads to cycles of over-eating (see: weekend confessional). But it's something I will definitely adjust if my energy levels are too low.
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Originally Posted by beach_plums
Good luck with the new plan. Keep us posted on how it's working!
Thanks, man! I will definitely keep you all posted. I really need this log to be accountable to my diet--even more so than to my workouts!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espi
Going slightly below maintenance every day means that it is not so difficult to adhere to on most days, but it also means that it is very easy to get above maintenance overall. Especially when you eat more in the weekends.
And yes, I have to agree with the others. For the longest time I'd think that working out really hard (both weight training & cardio) would help me lose weight. It didn't . ALl it did, was burning me out and practially forcing me to binge. Poliquin likes to say 'there is no overtraining, only undereating'. Well, it's hard to out-eat a too hard training regime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espi
Oh.. and regarding the chocolate : even on an 1100kcal day I manage to eat 2 mini-squares (2x4g) of dark chocolate with my coffee. The secret is to plan, plan and plan more. All of the food.. including the cheats you know you will be eating and don't plan having.
Eating foods that aren't considered 100% 'clean'but planning them is incredibly empowering and can help in adhering to plan.
Thanks Espi, as always, for your insight. Good points about the wider range in calorie cycling. Once again, I'll see how this works, but it's nice to consider other options in mind. There are always new approaches to try--I just can't give up.
The shared thoughts about cardio are very helpful for me to hear. I think I still always thought, "yeah, but I just need to do that cardio anyway." To be honest, the thought of dropping cals and dropping the kill-myself-in-the-gym cardio is very liberating. The problem is, I dropped the cardio and didn't drop the cals enough.
Yesterday was my first day on my plan. It was hard because I'm upping my doses of metformin, a drug that readjusts blood sugar and makes me feel ill. So I was feeling sick a lot yesterday--dizzy and tired and naseous. When I feel like that it is very hard for me to NOT over eat. But, even though I went very slight over cals, I stuck to my plan just about 95% so I feel proud of that.
Here's the final breakdown:
cals: 1,458 carbs: 112 (30.6%) fat: 61(37.5%) protein: 117 (31.9%)
I'll be interested in how your eating experimentation plays out. I have my own set of eats issues so love reading other's thoughts on nutrition and hopefully learning something along the way!
I am pretty good during the week and have been been caving so badly. I mean, it's not like I'm doing anything crazy like eating huge slabs of cake or anything--my highest cal intake would still be no more than 2200, but clearly that is just way too much for me. 
I've been following them loosely that strategy isn't working! lol
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