Go with the flow!

[UConnJulie]

Hope you're enjoying your rest weeks ...

[Espi]

Julie, I'm enjoying them but am almost pissed at how little difference it makes re maintenance on how much I can eat. I was 100% convinced it made a lot of difference. Probably only when you let yourself eat ad libitum. Seems to be a huge range of homeostasis.

I'm repeating my random thoughts in LostDog's log

Originally Posted by OldGuy

Sometimes I wonder if our bodies don't adapt to our diets the way they do to exercise and things slow down. Do we need to change our diets every few weeks just to throw a little change to keep things moving?

Originally Posted by Espi

OldGuy, that's what I'm experiencing all the time. It just doesn't make sense: right now I am not working out and taking a break of 2 weeks, averaging 2200 kcal (for 14 days). Maintenance is: 2200 kcal.

Flashback to May 2006 when I worked out every other day (lifting weights + a HIIT-like session): ate 2000 kcal and ... maintained on 1900-2000 kcal.

Further flashback to 2003: I cycled 300K/week, lifted weights 3x/wk and participated in 2 spinning classes/week: ate approx. 1800 kcal (didn't track calories back then) and... maintained on.. yep 1800 kcal.

Two more?
- started lifting again in June 2004 after a very long break: ate 1800 and yep, maintained on 1800.
- 6 months later I had really really piled on the calories: ate 2500 kcal and ...yes, you got it: maintained on 2500 kcal.

Maintenance seems to be my middle name, but unfortunately bulking is my family name.
Only zigzagging (diet only every other day) finally gave the desired fat loss, and to my utter astonishment, maintenance went up while intake went down. Probably the result from near ketogenic intake (50-75g C) on low-cal days versus refeed like intakes (150-400g C)on the high kcal days. The effect was nearly freaky: floating out of bed from excess heat production and feeling icy on the lower kcal days.

And finally repeating what I read this morning on another forum:

Diet determines your WEIGHT.
Excercise determines your COMPOSITION.

I realize there's a LOT of crossover here and this is a gross oversimplification of reality, but if you keep these components separate in your mind, you'll never think you can eat more of something simply because you're working out a lot.

I'm wondering about the last sentence though, considering this enormous fluctuation I'm experiencing.

Almost as if no matter what exercise routine I pick the body just adapts to the diet it's been given. I'm really really curious how many calories I ate back when I thought eating was a waste of time when I was busy. It must have been 1200ish kcals. And maintained on that amount as well.

Weird huh?

[tkinsley]

Originally Posted by Espi

Julie, I'm enjoying them but am almost pissed at how little difference it makes re maintenance on how much I can eat. I was 100% convinced it made a lot of difference. Probably only when you let yourself eat ad libitum. Seems to be a huge range of homeostasis.

I'm repeating my random thoughts in LostDog's log





And finally repeating what I read this morning on another forum:


I'm wondering about the last sentence though, considering this enormous fluctuation I'm experiencing.

Almost as if no matter what exercise routine I pick the body just adapts to the diet it's been given. I'm really really curious how many calories I ate back when I thought eating was a waste of time when I was busy. It must have been 1200ish kcals. And maintained on that amount as well.

Weird huh?

You know, Espi, it really makes me wonder if there isn't some relationship between intense workouts/cortisol/preservation of mass at all costs--i.e., complete metabolic anarchy based on fear of rapid catabolism? I like the simplified statement... it makes sense.

Also, in my experience after dieting down for a competition, my maintenance goes WAAAAAAY up for a few weeks... I would gain a few lbs from the glycogen repletion and fluid shifts and then I'd eat like 500-800 cals more/day and not gain a whit. That effect was temporary though, and as soon as I overdid for a few too many days, the fat just flew back onto my butt. Then I would have a prolonged period of resistance to loss (both mental AND physical, with self sabotage and also with very sluggish wt loss even with one hundred percent compliance).

Just goes to show, we are not simple in the least. You are onto something with that anti-KISS

Tina

[Espi]

You are so right about how the fat can just fly back onto the butt (or abdomen).

A major factor can be when coming off a diet that metabolism was a tad suppressed and comes back up again PLUS the fact that you have lost some LBM when dieting and you're regaining some of that too.
I had the most frightening fat mass gain back in January 2005 when I took it too far and kept eating 2500+ kcal for too long after my activity level had taken a plunge.
I'd painted the house I was going to move to in October 2004, and maintenance flew up to 2700 kcal back then and stayed there for a while. Upon which I took that maintenance for granted and started overeating when I wanted to prepare meals not just for myself but for my SO as well.

Only when I exercised more again and ate slightly less, balance was re-established.

The difficult part about dieting by using exercise for the calorie deficit is that the body adapts so quickly. And yes, hopefully a routine that keeps the body guessing will prevent that metabolism to drop, but I'm afraid that the only real way to prevent that is to keep telling the body it's not starving by very frequent refeeds & free meals. Some apparently need more than others.

[Espi]

Still not training, but going to start again Monday. Today I'm starting the dieting grind again by zigzagging between a 800 kcal deficit vs 200 kcal surplus compared to the REAL maintenance, abandoning the entire predicted maintenance thing as predicted maintenance just doesn't work!

I've had quite a few revelations over the past few weeks of maintaining (and actually eating too much!) as well as not training at ALL for 2 weeks!

Guess what? My maintenance right now when I'm just sitting on my ass and doing practically nothing outside just 1 or 2 walks or bike rides a day, is the same as when I exercise!! And even a few hundred calories higher than when I eat allergenic foods!

Anyone else whose maintenance is as malleable as mine? I'm overly happy that eating too much doesn't make me gain as much as I feared for , but geez, I honestly thought that exercising would make more of a difference than it does. Apparently it just makes me have less energy for other tasks so there's barely any difference. Not when I try to diet in a normal way at least. Normal = trying to create a deficit by eating sub-maintenance for several days.
Successful = only diet every other day but create a huge deficit (approx. 1000 kcal below mtn) and eat slightly over maintenance the other day.

I've come to the conclusion that all the training I did, isn't worth it. I'm loving it when I do it, no doubt about it. But I also did it to recompose. Well it wasn't happening because I tend to overdo it so much. I just never bonk right then. Energy just slowly saps out of me and I can tap into deeper resources (fat!) and as a consequence, metabolism goes down. And I end up having a metabolism that's just as high as when I don't exercise at all.

But the difference in energy levels outside the gym is dramatic. Instead of feeling too tired/exhausted to do anything except surfing the Internet I finally manage to get things done that are MORE important than training & diet.

I'm loving it so much that I'm definitely not going back to overtraining as much again. But will try to do as little as I can while still having fun. Short and intense.

For now I just go back to my previous schedule, lop off a few exercises (the low intensity ones) and start thinking about a fun routine that's still effective.

[Espi]

Triple Anti-KISS - 3

Tuesday
WAVE LOADING - HEAVY = 1 WU set + 2x3s wave
back: Yates Row

SPEED - MEDIUM = 2 sets (instead of 3)
None.

PYRAMID DOWN- MEDIUM = 2 sets (instead of 3)
chest: incline db press
biceps: EZ curl
shoulders: standing face pull
abs: wood chop

BODY WEIGHT -EASY - 2 sets
Sissy squat

Thursday
WAVE LOADING - HEAVY = 1 WU set + 2x3s wave
chest : db press

SPEED - MEDIUM = 2 sets (instead of 3)
quads: goblet squat

PYRAMID DOWN- MEDIUM = 2 sets (instead of 3)
quads: bb front squat
triceps : rope push down
shoulders: BB Military Press
abs: cable crunch

BODY WEIGHT -EASY - 2 sets
back: pull up

Saturday

WAVE LOADING - HEAVY = 1 WU set + 2x3s wave
hams: RDL

SPEED - MEDIUM = 2 sets (instead of 3)
hams: pull through
back: pull up

PYRAMID DOWN- MEDIUM = 2 sets (instead of 3)
erector: good morning
back: bent-over-row
abs: Renegade row

BODY WEIGHT -EASY - 2 sets
chest: BW push up

I'm still planning to devote more time to balance work, but this will be done every other Monday, just like I'd planned with: Exercises You've Never Tried Before #1

Cardio NONE INDOOR

The grand total of sets is 17 on Tuesday and 19 on Thursday and Saturday. A LOT less than what I was used to do. Contrary to what I'd planned to, I didn't lop off the easy exercises, but lopped off the 3rd set of the moderate ones.

[UConnJulie]

Sounds like you have found good balance ... awesome!!
I gotta know ... what's a "sissy squat"?!

[Espi]

THis is a Sissy squat. I've read a while ago about points of flexion. And the sissy squat gave 2 out of the 3 points of flexion.

midrange movements
Quads: squats
Hamstrings: stiff-legged deadlifts (also a stretch movement)
Lats: wide-grip chins to the front
Midback: behind-the-neck pulldowns
Delts: dumbbell presses
Chest: bench presses
Biceps: barbell curls or close-grip undergrip pulldowns
Triceps: lying extensions or close-grip bench presses
Abdominals: kneeups

stretch-position exercises
Quads: sissy squats
Hamstrings: stiff-legged deadlifts
Lats: pullovers
Midback: close-grip cable rows
Delts: incline one-arm laterals
Chest: dumbbell flyes
Biceps: incline curls
Triceps: overhead extensions
Abs: cable crunches with low-back support
Calves: donkey calf raises

contracted-position exercises
Quads: sissy squats
Hamstrings: stiff-legged deadlifts
Lats: pullovers
Midback: close-grip cable rows
Delts: incline one-arm laterals
Chest: dumbbell flyes
Biceps: incline curls
Triceps: overhead extensions
Abs: cable crunches with low-back support
Calves: donkey calf raises

[UConnJulie]

Holy crap! Good thing he's holding on or he'd land on his head!!

[galya]

Interesting observations as usual Don't work too hard!

[ljk]

Guess what? My maintenance right now when I'm just sitting on my ass and doing practically nothing outside just 1 or 2 walks or bike rides a day, is the same as when I exercise!!

How so? I'm not sure how that could be?

[Espi]

It can be that my Omron is lying to me, but it seems that my body is extremely stress-prone. Pumps out tons of cortisol that make me feel as if I'm not tired while exercising, when I really should be unable to continue.
Always have been like this I guess, because actually I've always been kinda tired from my youth on, probably lacking B12 all the time.

And when my body gets a real rest, and doesn't get a huge overdose of carbs (though I've been eating plenty every other day!) it might just go to a maintenance which is similar to what they predict for an average woman = 2000 kcal.
I've had it happen that I wouldn't lose on approx. 1800 kcal plus 300 K cycling, plus 3 lifting AND 2 spinning sessions. It's just totally weird.

Quite curious as to what is going to happen this and next week as I'm starting to lift again TODAY!

[Espi]

Tuesday Feb 27
TRAINING TAK version 2 cycle 1
all weights in kilograms

pullups
BWx1-1

WAVE LOADING
A1 Yates row
WU: 20x12
Wave 1 – 2
30 x 10 – 32,5 x10
35 x 9 – 37,5x9
40 x 8 – 42,5x8
First set felt very easy at 10 reps , 3rd set felt a bit harder, but could’ve done 1-2 more if I’d wanted to.

MEDIUM
A2 incline db press
(2x11)x14
(2x10) x 15

B2 EZ-curl
15x12
12,5x14

SMALL STUFF
A3 standing face pull
6,25x26-27
Have done face pulls before, but always seated. Standing up has me start at very low weights, made me end at nearly absurd high reps.

B3a wood chop
8,75 x 24/25 (right/left)
It’s been a long long time ago I’ve done these! Starting easy!

B3b golf swing
6,25 x 17/16 (right/left)
Spontaneously decided to try something else.. Never tried this version before. Same kind of purpose and movement as wood chop, but now I pull the pulley from down below to up. Invented this name.. no idea what the proper name should be. Reverse wood chop could be the boring name. Golf swing sounds much better. This one is harder too.. less chance of cheating?

BODY WEIGHT EXERCISES
A4 sissy squat
BW-30x 9-6
More tiresome than I thought.

Cardio
None. Am going to try and be as lazy as I can for a while.

General: trying very hard to not go overboard with training. Still added 2 extra pull-ups. And I’ll probably, in my attempts to be a lazy bum, ditch the 7th training (in 2 weeks) in which I planned to do extra stretching and fun exercises (from the aforementioned “Exercises You’ve Never Tried Before”, and spread it out over the 6 other days. A much better plan I guess. By not doing cardio I should have energy in abundance for that.


Training statistics
Rep index: 376 reps/hr (38min)
Volume: 4461kg
Total gym time: 38 mins.
# of sets: 20 - # of reps 232 - avg reps/set : 11,6 - kg/rep 19,2 kg

[Espi]

Monthly update

30d weight etc. averages March 1/Feb1
65.4/65.0kg =+0.4 /-0.6 kg
28.5/28.3 bf% = +0.2%/+0.1%
F: 18.6/18.4kg=+0.3/-0.1kg = 2.2/2.0kg F to go to 63.2/63.0kg @ 26%
LBM: 46.8/46.6kg=+0.1/-0.5kg
P-ratio: 27%/86% LBM gain/loss re to 30d avg wt gain

30 day average intake, maintenance & predicted expenditure
current 30d avg intake = 2183/2180 kcal, which is:
- 104.5/98.8% of 30d maintenance = 2089/2207 kcal = 314/88g fat gain/loss in in 30d
- 107.2/93.5% of predicted 30d avg caloric expenditure: 2035/2331kcal

30 day average macronutrient breakdown
carbs: 183/168g /34/31% / 2.8/2,6g/kg
protein: 133/132g / 24/25% / 2.0/2.0g/kg = 2.8/2.8g/kg LBM
fat: 103/110g / 42/45% / 1.6/1.7 g/kg
sat. fat : 33/35%
fiber: 32/29g

……………………………………………………………………………… …………

30d avg activity
Amt of rest/WO-days:24-6/18-12
kg lifted : 1678/4094kg/day
activity: 42/73 min/day

Calories eaten: rest 2097/1720 / lifting 2494/2921
Predicted expenditure: rest 1927/2060/ lifting 2425/2767
Carbs: rest 171/120g / training 226/247g
Protein: rest 127/112g / training 156/164g
Fat : rest 102/89g / training 107/143g

Comment: do less, eat more and see how maintenance stays nearly exactly the same . I just fattened a teeny bit. Not a lot. Nothing that cannot be remedied. This morning's weight even was 1 metric ounce short of VT at 63,8kg. Go me!

[Espi]

Thursday March 1
TRAINING Triple Anti-KISS – 3 cycle 1
all weights in kilograms

WAVE LOADING
A1 db bench press
WU: (2x9) x 12
Wave 1 – 2
(2x11) x 10 – (2x12) x10
(2x13) x 9 – (2x14) x9
(2x15) x 7 – (2x16) x8
Also tried neutral grip, can’t really tell it feels easier on the joints and it doesn’t feel like it makes the pressing easier. Tried to get more of an arch into it, and this definitely helps a LOT!

MEDIUM
A2 goblet squat
16x14 -15
Form gets sloppy towards the end.

B2 bb front squat
25x11
22,5x12
Clean the weight, choke yourself and squat. Still feels masochistic.

SMALL STUFF
A3 triceps rope pushdown
11,25 x 19-15
Starting a bit too light, so didn’t lower weight.

B3 bb military press
20 x 12
17,5x12
Weird how quickly I now seem to fatigue. It used to be that I’d get stronger throughout the sets.

A4cable crunch or should I call it the ‘prayer crunch’?
13,75 x 50
16,25 x 40
Errr, a bit too light.. could’ve kept going in first set to 75 or more if I’d wanted to. Perhaps form was off. I notice how trying to really touch the floor with my head already makes it a ton more difficult!


BODY WEIGHT EXERCISES
B4 pull ups
BWx2-1-1

General: strange workout. I seem to be much more relying on carbs than before. And also fatigue more quickly. If not mistaken, normally I am pushing through my boundaries most of the time until I seem to no longer be fatigued but literally running on ketones, adrenaline and dopamine pumping out too much cortisol as well? Even felt a bit dizzy after this wimpish workout and had to take some more carbs than planned post workout to snap out of it. Strange, very strange! Am missing that feeling I normally get after a workout, during which I'm too excited to eat. But probably, this works better.. I hope so.


Training statistics
Rep index: 359 reps/hr (45min)
Volume: 8503kg
# of sets: 20 - # of reps 269 - avg reps/set : 13,5 - kg/rep 31,6 kg