Time to get serious...

[Cynic]

Your deadlift is only a little ahead of your squat. I've never seen them neck and neck like that.

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Your deadlift is only a little ahead of your squat. I've never seen them neck and neck like that.

Cynic,

In a balanced lower body you will often see – and should see – very similar strength between the deadlift and squat. Don Alessi is known for his body balance opinions and he says, “Back squat and deadlift should be approximately equal and your strongest lifts.” It may not be common enough, but it is desirable.

Just taking a look at the deadlift chart and the squat chart I see:

Iamjennmedic Dead: 215 Squat: 225 Ratio: .95/1
bigDman Dead: 425 Squat: 400 Ratio: 1/.94
Frank S Dead: 460 Squat: 410 Ratio: 1/.89
Jason B Dead: 475 Squat: 418 Ratio: 1/.88

Paul, with new PRs in both lifts has Dead: 365 Squat: 355 and a Ratio: 1/.97

I think Paul is an excellent example of where an intermediate trainee should be in terms of body balance. It starts with core strength, stability and balance. That has to be learned somewhere down the line and I think he used to inline skate (right?). Some guys get it from martial arts or other sports that require great balance. Some just train right from the start, but it has to be trained. You have to have core stability that allows you to disassociate your pelvis, allowing mobility in the hips and legs while the lumbar region remains braced. Then you have to have no restrictions in your hips or legs that might keep you from making progress (such as hip flexors or TFL too tight, or maybe glutes not doing their fair share of the work). Paul has excellent lower body balance, strength, mobility and flexibility.

Where Paul is lacking is in thoracic extensibility and shoulder stability. To his credit he is beginning to address these areas and did not let his weaknesses get bad enough to begin to affect his lower body. I think he dodged that bullet because of his strong core. Often with a shoulder injury you will see a hip weakness in the contralateral hip. He has not shown that problem. He is working consistently on thoracic mobility with the foam roller and dynamic warm-up movements. He is doing physical therapy for his shoulder instability issues and has included shoulder stability movements into his upper body warm-ups (like pushup plus and other closed chain upper body stability movements).

I like following Paul’s training log because he makes the best of his strengths, but is also humble enough to work on his weaknesses. He is doing it “right” and I like to see that.

[EdChap]

Nice post, Lisa.

[Lisa~]

Thank you, lol. After it went up and I saw how long it was, I wondered if Paul would appreciate that in his training log, hahahahahaha. So that makes me feel better. I just kinda got off on a little dissertation there!

[Mahler]

Damn, Paul. Some really nice gains and you just started.

[pjb923]

I wasn't so sure about my squat/deadlift ratio. I was beginning to wonder if my deadlift numbers should be higher and tried searching the forum for the answer with no luck. I was going to post a question in the training forum, but I don't have to now. After reading Lisa's reply it looks like I'm right where I should be. Thanks!

I am very happy with the progress I'm making so far on this program. The 20lb increase in my first work set was sort of an accident. My first set of six was originally intended to be 285lbs, not 295. I was working in with someone and he was helping me change weights in between sets. He was using 225 and I told him to add a 25 and 10, thinking that 225 + 50 + 10 would get me to 285. I finished the set and went to log it when I realized I forgot to add the 2nd 10 and had just done 295. From that point on I decided I was adding no less than 20lbs to every one of my work sets.

Next week my goal is to complete my 2nd set of 6 with 3 plates and add at least another 10lbs to my 1RM. Putting those 3 plates on the bar is such a great feeling and need more of it.
One day I'll know what it feels like to add a 4th.

[Frank.S]

Alot is going to have to do with your body mechanics. I would imagine that without the use of gear, I would be damn close in both the squat and the deadlift.

I think newer lifters will have a higher deadlift then squat simply as it is easier to perform a deadlift and add weight to it. The squat has alot more technique IMO, and needs alot more practace. (note.. im talking about beginers. I know the deadlift has a hell of a lot of technique after a while of lifting.)

[Alcoholiday]

i was going to say what frank said as well. it's going to be harder for tall lifters to squat, and likewise with short to pull. plus, people with a thicker base have an easier time squatting, but with pullers, a "thicker" base can mess up your leverage. but for the most part, i agree with what lisa said.

[Frank.S]

After reading this log a bit more, I could not do NROL. Wow.

On the days where you work up to a heavy 1rm.. the amounr of volume/weight of that volume is crazy. for your last deadlift for example.. I know if I just pulled 345 x 1 then 315 x 6.. I would not even kid myself on anymore work! haha. Thats crazy.

[pjb923]

The volume in NROL does seem a little crazy sometimes. The deadlift workout is also supposed to have good mornings after all of that work. There was no way my lower back could handle 2 sets of good mornings by the end of that workout. I'm also not the only one to say how crazy the superset of Bulgarian split squats and step-ups is after all those squats. My DOMS is hitting it's peak today and every time I get up from my chair i'm reminded about how much volume I did on Monday.

But I really do like the wave loaded sets. Going back and forth between 6 reps and a heavy single seems to be working for me. It's a nice change from the standand 4x6 scheme.

[Mahler]

Originally Posted by pjb923

The volume in NROL does seem a little crazy sometimes. The deadlift workout is also supposed to have good mornings after all of that work. There was no way my lower back could handle 2 sets of good mornings by the end of that workout. I'm also not the only one to say how crazy the superset of Bulgarian split squats and step-ups is after all those squats. My DOMS is hitting it's peak today and every time I get up from my chair i'm reminded about how much volume I did on Monday.

But I really do like the wave loaded sets. Going back and forth between 6 reps and a heavy single seems to be working for me. It's a nice change from the standand 4x6 scheme.

Come on, Paul. No slacking.

Good Mornings after Deads = Demonic, but doable.
Bulgarians and Step Ups = Pure, unadulterated hell.

[hard_rox]

Great job on the squats, Paul!!! And those are ATG!

Originally Posted by Lisa~

In a balanced lower body you will often see – and should see – very similar strength between the deadlift and squat. Don Alessi is known for his body balance opinions and he says, “Back squat and deadlift should be approximately equal and your strongest lifts.” It may not be common enough, but it is desirable.

Lisa - I'm sure there are conflicting theories on the topic, but I thought the 1:1 balance was for pure quad & hamstring strength (tested via leg curl & leg extension) rather than compound lifts. From what I've seen most literature cites a deadlift to squat ratio greater than 1.

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by hard_rox

Lisa - I'm sure there are conflicting theories on the topic, but I thought the 1:1 balance was for pure quad & hamstring strength (tested via leg curl & leg extension) rather than compound lifts. From what I've seen most literature cites a deadlift to squat ratio greater than 1.

I'm not even sure there are anything but opinions on this topic. I quoted Don Alessi's opinion. I think Alco made a great point that body type is going to make a big difference in which lift is stronger for any individual person. I meant it as a very general way of looking at balance in an intermediate trainee, and I have seen that many of my clients have very similar squat and dead numbers. It's really just an opinion.

If someone was going to do a study to compare quad to ham strength, they would have to use leg ext and leg curl just because you can't measure the compound lifts that specifically. I think I've even heard a 2:1 quad:ham ratio to be ideal in those kinds of studies. But coaches set their own standards to help give their athletes something to shoot for. Those were Don Alessi's "standards" that I was quoting.

It's an interesting topic and if you've actually seen any literature on it, I'd enjoy reading it.

[pjb923]

Wednesday 9/13/06
"NROL" Strength I Workout B with modifications


SuperSet
Barbell Bench Press
135 x 6
155 x 6
185 x 6
205 x 6 x 4 sets
135 x 12

Neutral Grip Pull-up
BW-112 x 10 - assisted pull-up
BW-82 x 10 - assisted pull-up
BW x 6
BW-28 x 6 - assisted pull-up
BW-40 x 6 - assisted pull-up
140 x 15 - Lat pulldown

Push-up ISO hold
60s x 1
45s x 1

Barbell Bent over row
45 x 8
95 x 6
135 x 6
155 x 8
175 x 6 x 2 sets

This was a good and bad workout. I had a Physical Therapy session today and we worked my internal rotators with a ton of volume. When it came to the pull-ups I just didn't have it in me and had to use the assisted pull-up machine, and I cut out the last set of 6.

Bench press stayed exactly the same as last week, which is fine for now. I still am not ready to really push my shoulder on bench press.

I was able to add a significant amount of weight to the bent over rows. Last week I went way too light. A while ago I hurt my back doing bent over rows with bad form, and I think I'm still a little apprehensive about going heavy. I'm really focusing on my form now and getting the weight much closer to my bench, which is where I want to be.

Overall, not a bad workout, but I think next week I'm going to move my PT session to Thursday.

On a side note, I saw 2 other people squatting in my gym tonight. Both using belts, bad form, very little weight and crappy range of motion. But at least they were squatting.

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by hard_rox

Lisa - I'm sure there are conflicting theories on the topic, but I thought the 1:1 balance was for pure quad & hamstring strength (tested via leg curl & leg extension) rather than compound lifts. From what I've seen most literature cites a deadlift to squat ratio greater than 1.

I found this post from Dan Wathen in the Supertraining archives. He's responding to a question about balancing eccentric and concentric actions for athletes. I thought it might add to our discussion.

Subject: Re: Muscle action-type Balance

Hi Grant!

There have been many studies since the inception of isokinetic testing equipment looking at joint agonist/antagonist torque ratios. I wrote a chapter in the first edition of the Essentials of Strength and Conditioning on the subject of muscle balance. We found great variation in the ratio's depending on many factors such as age, sex, training level, speed of testing, position of testing, and muscle action tested. Most slow speed concentric action testing finds flexion of a joint is about 2/3 the strength of extension. The ratios are around 1:1 as the speed gets higher (over 240 degrees/second).

Your thoughts on eccentric actions of hamstrings are supported in the literature. A better way to look at knee flexion/extension ratios is to measure the concentric action of the quads compared to the eccentric action of the hams. The closer to 1:1 the better. However there is no set magic number that insures performance enhancement or injury prevention.

Best wishes!

Dan Wathen,
Youngstown (OH) State University

[Lisa~]

Good job on the rows Paul. I agree that moving the physical therapy sessions to Thursday would be a good idea. I'm happy for you that your shoulder is improving!

[Mahler]

Paul,
In spite of the PT session, this is a good workout. I envy you those 24 presses at 205.