Keto - The Return

[Phaedrus49er]

I tried searching the Men's Health forum for the MASSIVE keto thread another guy (Havoc711?) and I had going, but I guess the forum format changes deleted it. Granted, it was nothing compared to Cappy's fitness photo thread here, but at the time, it was nearly the biggest thing MH had seen. It was daily, it was detailed, and it was two guys busting hump (and each other's chops) through mutual deprivation. That was three years ago...

Okay, so that was a bit hokey, but hey, the bottom line is that keto worked wonders for my body composition and energy levels...when I stuck rigidly to it. I half-heartedly attempted keto again about a year later, but I just couldn't get into the groove like the first time. After a lengthy break from both the dietary and training components of keto, I feel I'm ready to try it again.

Diet

My dietary needs are roughly 2700cal/day--about 215g protein and the rest in fat--to achieve a ~500cal deficit. This may or may not adjust depending on the mirror (as usual, the scales don't much matter). I will slowly wean myself from carbs for the next couple days until I hit zero carbs beginning Monday. I will NOT repeat my first foray by dropping both carbs and caffeine the exact same day (I got through it, but I was literally worthless for a week at work). In fact, I will probably continue my caffeine intake via tea and coffee since I don't ingest that much anyway. I will also be using the following supplements as needed:

--ephedra or Biotest MD-6 (yes, I still have a couple bottles)
--Biotest Powerdrive (I'm one of the few on whom it seems to work)
--ZMA (I love psychadelic dreams)
--HDT Pro Blend 55 whey protein MRP
--Prolab N-Large2 (one-quarter servings ONLY as a PWO)

Of course, the weekends will involve lots and lots of carbs and minimal fat. I love living three blocks from a decent pizza place [img]smile.gif[/img] I have experimented with skipping the carb-up weekends and going straight through with keto, which produced some favorable results both physically and mentally. I may do this from time to time.

Training

The typical keto training regimen follows a split weight training routine with optional HIIT for the first two days, two optional days of rest or cardio, then a full-body circuit routine with optional HIIT on the fifth day. The weekend is primarily rest, or at least low-impact activities. I'm not going to follow a specific lifting routine so that I can incorporate CrossFit stuff as much as possible, but I'll be sure to get the split and full-body routines in at the right places.

Some continuing considerations:
--internal shoulder rotation imbalance
--increasing chin-up/pull-up capacity
--HSPUs

Timetable

For now, I plan on at least two months (mid-September), though that could likely go longer. Once you get into the groove with this, it's tough to go back to carbs. Well, at least it was for me. I'll take "before" pictures this weekend to use as reference on my progress. Whether or not I post them right away is still up for debate.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about when I say "keto," I'll be happy to provide links and additional information I've accumulated.

[UpNorth]

Sounds like a tough regime! Good luck! One suggestion: I would throw in some multivitamins with your supplements since you won't be eating any fruits or vegetables during the week.

I'll be following this one...

[Phaedrus49er]

Oh yeah. In my world, a multi is a given, so I didn't think to list it. I'll do better next time [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Phaedrus49er]

Well, so much for the carb weaning. Between having only one break for lunch while out on the motorcycle range yesterday and today (and only fast food in sight), and having a celebratory cake at the end of class today, I guess I'll be slamming the coffee in the morning. At any rate, I'm excited to get back on this. Besides, I need to be accustomed to the shift in energy source so my brain will be clear for next weekend. d

[K-Court]

Well at least you won't be consuming empty cals/carbs in the form of alcohol next weekend, given all the riding you'll be doing!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now, get back on the program, ya slacker. Weekend's over!

[Phaedrus49er]

Damn straight I won't be drinking. Planning to ride all day Sunday out on whatever country roads I can find just to get some time and mileage in.

BACK on? Dude, I hadn't even started yet [img]tongue.gif[/img] Caffeine is good. It's keeping me alert as I can feel my body get a little loopy from lacking carbs, and I haven't even hit the gym yet (guess I should figure out what I'm doing today, eh?) [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Phaedrus49er]

Diet (remember how FitDay likes to round)

Protein - 932cal (233g, a little high but okay)
Carbs - 15cal (4g, dairy)
Fat - 1613cal (179g)
Total calories - 2608 (touch low but okay)

Not bad for the first day. Got a LITTLE spacey around noon, but nothing like the first time I tried this. Hooray for morning coffee. A tad hungry at the end of the day despite a decent steak dinner. I think a grocery store run for snacky veggies is in order. Water intake MUST increase significantly.

Training (all weight in lbs)

3 trisets with a 120RI at the end:
--squat - 10 @ 135, 10 @ 135, 10 @ 135
--bent BB row - 10 @ 75, 10 @ 95, 10 @ 95
--push press - 5 @ 135, 10 @ 95, 8 @ 95

2 sets with a 30RI
--Swiss ball crunch - 15, 15

A bastardized, modified Meltdown setup, which will likely become fairly standard for the first two days of the week. Also, after training my oxidative energy system for so long, my lactic energy system needs some work. It'll be interesting to see what happens as I try to train the two together.

[cappuccino]

Phaedrus,

what happens after you reach your body comp goal with this type of diet? Can you maintain your gains when you reincorporate carbs?

All of these "special diets" look pretty interesting, and intense , but it always makes me wonder what happens when you get there. Or is this just used to jump start your progress??

[Phaedrus49er]

It is possible to maintain gains/losses after re-introducing carbs, but diet planning and appropriate training is essential as always. Of course, depending on your body comp goals, you can theoretically carry out keto indefinitely. After all, our bodies are designed for it (cavemen didn't exactly have bread and sugar as regular parts of their diets). It's just that in much of humanity, carbs are cheap and plentiful, and who doesn't love a random pizza or sushi or Waffle House run at 3am after a night of drinking? Grabbing a plain chicken breast to munch on just doesn't offer the same satisfaction [img]smile.gif[/img]

I look at keto as the opposite extreme of a hypertrophy diet, similar to the opposite training regimens that associate with each training phase. The diet complements the training and vice versa. Some people advocate a less extreme manipulation of macronutrients and keep carbs in the equation. I've experimented with low- and no-carb, and no-carb has worked well for me in the past, especially in that I seem to have more energy from a higher-calorie macronutrient being used for fuel, plus I'm a lot better about my water intake since there's little in my body to help retain that water.

Ramble ramble ramble... hope that made SOME sense. Still foggy from having just woken up...

[cappuccino]

Thanks P, that's interesting. If I didn't allow any carbs, I'd be setting myself up for serious binges. But I guess once you get used to it...

What about bad breath/body odor from no carbs?

[Buccaneer]

Best of luck to you Phaedrus, I'll definately be following your log to see how this goes for you.

[Phaedrus49er]

Cappy, yes, the binge yearnings are bad at first, but always keep in mind that you literally do binge on carbs on the weekends during a cyclical ketogenic diet. And yes, you do get used to it. Consider it a reward for the deprivation during the week. As for the aromas, body odor is no better or worse (for me), and if you keep up with your water intake, bad breath isn't an issue.

Thanks, Buc. I really hate I couldn't pull up the thread from MH. That had some GREAT stuff on it.

As a side note in the TMI file, for what it's worth, I've been told a lack of carbs in the male body makes semen very bitter. Now that this thread has taken a downward turn...

[Buccaneer]

I remember following the original thread a few years back.
Where are you at body comp wise at the moment?
As well, what's a sample days menu for you?

[Phaedrus49er]

I'm not sure of my body comp numbers. I'm too impatient to track caliper readings. The mirror isn't that great, though. I slacked a lot the past couple months on both training and diet, and I'll constantly be dealing with the "leftovers" of being overweight for the first sixteen years of my life. I'll hazard a guess of around 18%. If I get my "before" pics online, I'll PM a link.

As for a sample diet, here's what I had yesterday (in appropriate combinations and timings):

3 eggs, large, fried
3 1-oz slices Provolone cheese
1 1-oz slice turkey lunchmeat
4 1/4-lb (pre-cooked wt.) hamburger patties
7.4-oz broiled chicken breast
1 Tsp olive oil
5.4-oz steak, medium-rare

[K-Court]

Ben, you haven't really said what your goal for this program is. I'm presuming you just want to lose some bf in the next two months. What is your present weight and any other stats you have? And where are you hoping to be in comparison by the end of the two months?

PS Hats off to you. There is NO way I could do that (and that's coming from the guy who managed the MSWE ...)

PPS Thanks for the semen info. Really useful ...

[Phaedrus49er]

The only feasible goal for a non-newbie on keto is body composition (a.k.a. fat loss). Slight hypertrophy is possible but barely (damn you Mejia for breaking me from the "bulking"/"cutting" verbage [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). I have no definitive numbers other than my last weigh-in a few weeks ago at around 210lbs (I think). My only real means of comparison is before-and-after pictures. Still debating about posting the "before" pics now or at the end, whenever that is. I will, however, post the "after" pics from my last round at some point. Hell, I dunno. I'll figure something out.

Re: PS - It's a bear, believe me.

Re: PPS -

[Phaedrus49er]

Okay, I'm going to suck it up and post some pictures:

1996, 16-17 years old, ~160lbs, summer after the wrestling weight crash of 110lbs over the previous year including 50lbs that Nov-Mar, lowest BF% of my life but a LOT of muscle mass lost as well


Sept 2002, 23 years old, 200-220lbs, after four solid months of CKD and appropriate training with plyometrics thrown in (I begin to wonder if my dad was a Yeti); this follows 3 years of complete inactivity in college and 2 years of lifting with no clue about diet until this phase



July 2005, 25 years old, ~210lbs, current state (more core muscle and fat, arms lacking mass and strength, upper legs have mass and strength, calves have strength only)




As I noted in my first post on this thread, I'll continue working on imbalance and strength issues with mass not being much of an option on this kind of program. Once cold weather starts keeping me inside, I'll likely shift to a mass-based program, but that's a way's away to consider right now.

[Phaedrus49er]

Diet

Protein - 906cal (226g)
Carbs - 46cal (12g, could be worse)
Fat - 1613cal (179g)
Total calories - 2613

Noticed a few immediate memory lapses this morning at work and a couple bouts of the blahs around noon, but nothing unexpected. The lapses just let me know that my body is changing its source of energy. Also, my body kicked my ass today and reminded me that I needed to drink more water as evidenced by a persistent dry mouth and throat when I wasn't drinking enough, which sucks when you're trying to do a report [img]smile.gif[/img] I had to pee a lot.

Training

3 trisets with a 120RI at the end:
--assisted chin-ups - 10, 10, 10
--single-leg deadlifts - 10, 10, 10 (each leg)
--pushups - 10, 10, 10

2 sets with a 30RI
--medicine ball woodchoppers - 10, 10, 10 (each side)

For the chin-ups, I wanted to be sure to get 10 good reps for each set, so I put a chair behind me to put my toes on and used my legs to assist as my arms fatigued (same principle as the assisted HSPUs). Legs are sore from squats yesterday, but they'll get used to the work. Probably going for a semi-long run tomorrow, then off Thursday (no work either, so I'll be off to the Harley dealer to finalize some paperwork for Saturday), then a full-body circuit and a long run on Friday. It's supposed to be HIIT on Friday, but my running partner finally has some time off when I'm in town and off work, so we're going running that evening. Needless to say, I'll be DEEP into ketosis by that point, so a lengthy run should be interesting. I might have to pop an ephedra a few hours beforehand and drown myself in water before heading out. Speaking of which, with my second day completed, I should wake up in ketosis in the morning and have three good days in it. Of course, I'll report tomorrow.

Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention that I ran by Home Depot today and bought the stuff necessary to make that monster sandbag (bought the canvas back while in DC): twine, duct tape, contractor clean-up bags (3mil), and 300lbs of sand. Now, I seriously doubt I'll get to the point of lifting 300lbs constantly, but I can make smaller bags to work with outside the canvas bag. I'm thinking tie up the clean-up bags as shown in the instructions provided elsewhere on this forum and use them for farmer walks. Oh yeah [img]smile.gif[/img]

[cappuccino]

I hope you binge on pineapples on your weekend carb days. Hear that helps sweeten up the semen.

This sounds like a medical experiment. I hope you do ok.

Where's the veggies? All meat and fat diet has got to kill you with no fiber. Can't you at least munch on some spinach?

[Phaedrus49er]

Ham and pineapple pizza work for you? Actually, I've read (of course I can't remember where) that apples are good for that as well, even sweetening it a bit.

I think ***I*** was an experiment sometimes... but thanks [img]smile.gif[/img]

Veggies are there in some form. I take a senior multivitamin every day (lacks excess iron), and I have a big Sam's Club bag of frozen veggies that I'll pull for a snack. I'm also waiting for Friday to buy veggies from the farmer's market down the road, but yes, if push comes to shove (as in I run out of the veggies I have), I'll run to the grocery store for green leafies, which reminds me:

I inadvertently left out a VITAL supplement in my opening list (along with the multi so graciously pointed out by UN): FIBER. I take a serving of sugar-free Metamucil each morning with breakfast. Veggies or not, with relatively little fibrous ruffage in the system, fiber is essential for that fresh and clean feeling on a regular basis.

Also, another item of note. Considering the significant caloric deficit it turns out I was on for awhile, I'm actually eating more calories per day during the week now than I was before, something that has REALLY help curb the hunger pangs. If you come from a maintenance diet to a keto cut or even a keto maintenance, the hunger can be rough the first week.

[K-Court]

It appears that somewhere between 17 and 22, someone chopped your head off. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

And I'm thinking I liked your old log better. I never ever read things like "...fiber is essential for that fresh and clean feeling on a regular basis."



Seriously, this sounds like a weird and wonderful experiment and I will be interested to see your progress at the end. I wish you well, man.

Questions: Does Harley riding count as cardio? Why didn't you post a front shot?

[Phaedrus49er]

Yeah, strange how I lost my head in college I'm trying to make this log a little more detailed and, we'll say, livelier. Thanks for the support. No cardio on the Harley unless it's sitting still, and I am NOT going there. As for the front shot, I really don't know. My figure is essentially the same front and back (meaning love handles), plus I was feeling particularly hairy the day I took the pics

As predicted, I entered ketosis overnight. Right now, there are only trace levels of ketones present, but I imagine that'll change after the run today. Woo.

[Buccaneer]

Why do you care about sweetening your semen?
OH!
Wait a minute, you mean girls will.... (jumps up from desk and swings by grocery store before racing home)

Seriously though, it looks like you have some serious leg mass P, and when you shed the love handles I would say you'll have a major V-shape to your back too.

I assume you're using keto sticks to monitor ketosis?

[Phaedrus49er]

Wait for it............................ .......

Thanks, man. Leg mass is one of the benefits of having been way overweight. We'll see about that V-shape in a few weeks [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yep, there will be a rush on ketostix in a few weeks after I finish off what I have leftover from my last keto go-round. I feel like I'm drug testing every morning.

[Buccaneer]

lol!

Your routine doesn't look very fun either as I gave the original Meltdown a go a few years ago and just thinking of it makes my stomach flip.

[K-Court]

Jeez, I'm learning so much here. I had never heard of ketostix before this morning. I was going to ask how you knew you'd entered ketosis and then Bucc saved me the need. How do these ketostix work? (or is that gonna result in another TMI post ...? )

I agree with Bucc's comments on your physique. You've got the beginnings of something great there, man. Really solid. And I wouldn't worry about the arms either - they looked great in the 2003 shots and I'm sure you'll get that back in no time.

You were having a particularly hairy day?? Oh, pullleaaasseee!

[Phaedrus49er]

Buc, I figured a Meltdown-like lifting routine along with HIIT would help me re-develop my lactic energy system. You're right, though: it can make you question the value of your own life sometimes [img]smile.gif[/img]

Rob, you pass the ketostix through the urine stream or dip them in a small container of fresh urine, and the end turns colors depending on the concentration of ketones. Thanks for the encouragement. I think my arms will be more proportional as my BF% drops, and yes, I was feeling hairy... If I get around to taking a front shot, I'll post it. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[K-Court]

There are clippers for that sort of thing you know!

[Phaedrus49er]

Good thing there's not a full moon tonight [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Diet

Protein - 927cal (232g, guess that's gonna be about normal)
Carbs - 17cal (4g, aw yeah)
Fat - 1794cal (199g)
Total calories - 2781 (booyah!)

Fewer mental lapses today, just some lingering fatigue from yesterday. Might actually be getting the hang of it again. Just for shits and giggles, I checked my keto state when I got home from work, and lo and behold, slightly deeper keto. After today, I'll only be checking in the mornings except for last thing on Fridays just to see how deep in I got.

Training

Had planned on running today, but not two seconds after I got off work this afternoon, the skies opened up, and it's been off and on--and heavy when it was on--since then, so no running for me today. I couldn't even put my sandbags together As for tomorrow, no telling. I have a lot more free time, but I'm also hitting a long run Friday night, so I'm just not sure yet. Maybe I'll move around a lot of sand [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Phaedrus49er]

Diet

Protein - 881cal (220g)
Carbs - 61cal (15g, cottage cheese and eggs kill me)
Fat - 1665cal (185g)
Total calories - 2650

Pretty blah today, but then, that's probably due more to lack of sleep than anything else.

Training

Had planned on running, and the weather held for it, but I ended up spending two hours putting together sandbags, which involved a lot of lifting to move and check weights and resulted in a killer core workout by accident. I also went ahead with this so I could unblock the outside door from my kitchen where I'd put all the sand [img]smile.gif[/img] I swear, from just moving all those bags around, that's gonna be a killer workout tool, and I may be able to stay out of the gym until cold weather gets here. If weather holds tomorrow, and since I have a short workday, I might play with the sandbags tomorrow. I'll just have to run inside every time I want to do chin-ups.