Danny, I'm directing this at you because I know you use low-rep training with movement based splits. Anyone else who knows about this stuff, feel free to jump in.
So here's the deal: I'm doing 3 full body workouts per week. I want to be overall more fit. I'd like to definately be stronger, though gaining size isn't really a concern for me. I'd also like to increase my speed/athletic performance, as well as my endurance.
Monday I do low rep-training, and Fri I'm doing an oly-lift/explosive lifting day. My question is about Wednesday. On Wed, do you think it would be more condusive to my goals to do another day of low rep training (and if so with a high or low number of sets)? Or would it be better given my goals to do some moderate rep work (in the 6-10 range, 3 sets)?
I'm personally thinking moderate rep work would be better to give myself some nuerological rest between monday and friday, as well as increase blood flow to the muscles without destroying them mid-week. However, perhaps heavy lifting would be more effective overall.
So Danny (and everyone else), what are your thoughts?
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Can't speak for anyone else but I personally really struggle on full body workouts 3x a week UNLESS one day has a different rep scheme or lighter weight than the others.
Give a light day in the middle and I can do ok, but by the third day I get that "I wonder if this is going to hurt when I drop it on my head" feeling.
Definatly moderate rep day. Three days of low rep or explosive stuff would kick my ass pretty hard. I really don't think that you would need another day of lower rep training with your set up.
Danny
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Danny... Thanks a lot man! I more or less knew that, but kinda needed some reassurance that I wasn't "missing out" on some better gains. Thanks again [img]smile.gif[/img]
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BTW Danny, Do you think theres a "better" way to train, given my goals. I figure the low rep stuff for strength and a little size. the moderate day will give me a little more volume for hypertrophy, and with shorter rest periods should hopefully up my endurance as well. and the explosive day for, well, explosiveness!
Without me actually posting my routine, any general suggestions?
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I really like the set-up. I actually wish I could follow something similar but I can't do to my crazy training schedule with strongman.
The only suggestions would be to avoid trying to hammer in too many things on the low rep day, that could get pretty killer, kind of periodize what gets the most emphasis over time and make sure that the explosive day is really explosive. If its possible it might be best to put it at the beggining of the week. Because by the end of the week it might be a bit harder to really explode. But whatever works, I do my explosive stuff on my last training day as well because it fits the split better.
Good luck sir.
Danny
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Sorry to be a pain about this, but here's the routine. It works on a two week cycle, ie, i never do the same workout more than once over a two week period.
Week 1:
Workout A (4x5, rest 2 min):
A1) Deadlift
A2) Flat Bench Press
B1) Front Squat
B2) Pullups (w/weight)
Abs: Low-to-High Woodchopper (2x8)
Bridge (2x as long as you can)
Danny, since this thread is directed at you and has you attention I was thinking it was just better to post my question here instead of starting a new thread. Alright, just wondering where you base you philosophies of traning on? Like I was reading a lot of Chad Waterbury's stuff on T-mag and it seemed similar to what you were talking about the other day. I wanna explore full body splits/upper body, lower body splits more so if you could give me a link of where you get your ideas from that would be great. Thanks man.
This is actually a first for me. Its funny RipStone mentions Chad Waterbury, as its actually based roughly on a few of his routines. It means a real lot to hear you say you like the set-up, as designed workouts is something i've struggled with quite a bit in the last year. So first off, thank you! [img]smile.gif[/img]
The periodization is based on Chad's total-body program and his Quattro Dynamo program. My rep/set ranges, though, are based on the article Easy-Hard Gainer by Christian Thibaudeau. The article really nailed my body-type right on the head, and based on his recommendations i tried to keep the workload per workout low, but the intensity high.
Finally, I wanted to make sure I hit all of the 6 major movement types with both low rep and moderate rep training, which is why it works on two week cycle. I'm thinking about dropping the two iso excercises at the end of each of my moderate rep days, though.
I'll let you know about my progress. I was planning on changing the rep schemes every month and half, with a trend of slowly lowering them. For example, in Phase II Workout A would become 5 sets of 3, Workout B would become 3 sets of 7, and Workout C would be 5 sets of 2. By the last phase I'd be doing single rep sets on low rep and explosive days.
Anywho, thanks for all the input Danny. BTW, its insane to see you doing that strongman training. I love the size to strength ratio you have. In other words, its cool that you're as strong as you are considering you're not insanely huge. Thanks again!
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My opinion wasnt asked for but Ill just comment anyway:
This is an interesting way of doing things. In theory it could work, I mean CT does blocks (2-4wks) where a specific skill is prioritized (ie limit strength) and everything else maintained or you could break it down further into a pendulum cycle where you focus on different aspects each week.
You could consider a conjugate setup where you have specific days for limit strength and strength-speed with strucutral and endurance work spread throughout. You could even throw in some speed-stength stuff on your DE days.
Ideally Id make the explosive day my first day for the reasons danny mentioned, rep day in the middle, and then limit work at the end if youre working MWF. That way you space out your CNS-based sessions and get two days of rest rather than one.
I dont the purpose of explosive chins or rows though. I know you want speed/athletic performance but youd be better served playing the sport for which you want performance in that regard. The rows and chins just dont seem to add anything in my opinion.
My pennies.
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"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
Gq, thanks for the input man! I shoulda tacked your name on the post too (sorry!)...
So some of the technical terms went a bit over my head though. You say explosive on day 1, but you think the low rep work should be on friday? or wednesday?
I added the explosive rows and pulldowns because I thought it would be a good idea to have some explosive work for the back and biceps and not just the chest and tris. While I understand they're not as sport specific as the other explosive lifts are, I think they can still be useful. Again, I actually stole them from a CW routine.
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Originally posted by RipStone: Danny, since this thread is directed at you and has you attention I was thinking it was just better to post my question here instead of starting a new thread. Alright, just wondering where you base you philosophies of traning on? Like I was reading a lot of Chad Waterbury's stuff on T-mag and it seemed similar to what you were talking about the other day. I wanna explore full body splits/upper body, lower body splits more so if you could give me a link of where you get your ideas from that would be great. Thanks man.
I am starting a fan club!
Um, where I got my ideas... Lets see...
I stole the ham/quad dominant and vertical/horizontal push/pull from Ian King's articles over at T-Mag, not sure which ones though. Thats one of the few things of Ian's I still use.
Besides that I don't know if you can narrow it down to one source. I have always said that I don't know anything special I just happen to be in a great place. Lots of time on my hands and plenty of internet access. The T-Mag back issues are great, I have learned a ton over there in the past. I really like Chad Waterbury's stuff and Christians stuff is amazing as well. I have both of Christians books and have taken stuff from both. His first book, "Black Book of Training Secrets" is really great for just about any level lifter, I would recomend it to anyone.
A huge resource has been www.elitefts.com, the Westside barbell guys. Louie Simmons is an amazing guy. They do an upper/lower split involving a mix of max effort, dynamic effort, and repetative effort work.
This here forum has also been huge. Bill Hartmans stuff is awesome, looking at his old posts is always a damn good time. So is the stuff by Alwyn, Dos, Craig, Adam, Lou, and JP. A huge collection of knowledge. Screwing around in the old posts is always a fun way to learn some random stuff.
Another one is www.ruggedmag.com. Its relativly new but the editor Joel Marion uses splits a lot like Waterburys. Another writer for them, Eric Cresssey's stuff is also awesome. Smart guy there.
Besides that, I can't really think of any specific places on the internet that have all of my "ideas" on them. It just comes from reading and trying things and putting together a bit from each Strength Coach I read about. Eventually you get pretty good at figuring out what works, often without even trying it. I don't need to follow a Flex bicep routine to know that it sucks and I don't have to run through all of Waterbury's programs to know they will be effective.
Lately I have been getting into the books that a lot of these guys listed above have taken their ideas from. Books like Supertraining and Science and Practice, by guys like Siff and Zatsiorsky. They are hard as hell to read and often go over my head but are amazing resources.
Hopefully I helped you a bit, its kind of hard to narrow down exactly where things came from.
Good luck reading dude.
Danny
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Originally posted by sharkbait31: Gq, thanks for the input man! I shoulda tacked your name on the post too (sorry!)...
So some of the technical terms went a bit over my head though. You say explosive on day 1, but you think the low rep work should be on friday? or wednesday?
I added the explosive rows and pulldowns because I thought it would be a good idea to have some explosive work for the back and biceps and not just the chest and tris. While I understand they're not as sport specific as the other explosive lifts are, I think they can still be useful. Again, I actually stole them from a CW routine.
Not to steal it from GQ but put the low rep stuff Friday. Limit strenth is the term for lower rep training.
I can see an explosive row being a pretty cool exercise for the traps and I can also see it helping out in things like high pulls and the like, especially for the intermediate lifter.
Shark, thanks for the props on the Strongman stuff. I am getting better. Its a damn fun way to train. You should see the guys I lift with if you want to see scary strength. I saw one of them do 19 reps with 550 lbs on a Trap Bar Deadlift. Just nuts.
But I will be crazy huge and crazy strong one day, I just have to keep eating!
Danny
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No worries Danny... so where can i get the DKing Fan Club Tshirts at???? [img]tongue.gif[/img]
The elitefts thing... i've gone to their site, and I can't find articles anywhere. I don't really understand the dynamic vs max effort lifting stuff... Anywhere you can direct me to learn more?
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I can see an explosive row being a pretty cool exercise for the traps and I can also see it helping out in things like high pulls and the like, especially for the intermediate lifter.
Eh, if youre doing high pulls youre shrugging your traps or in the case of an o-lift probably not shrugging at all to make way for the "OH shrug" in a snatch. I can see why they might work in theory but Ive never done them and dont see the practical applications to it. Im not knocking the routine or CW, these are just ramblings from an aspiring o-lifter. Its late [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
If you want to learn more about the system I would read the articles "periodization bible" one and two and then the Eight Keys series of articles. That will give you a huge amount. Both of these are also at T-mag and are under the Testosterone link after the one above.
Danny
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quote: I can see an explosive row being a pretty cool exercise for the traps and I can also see it helping out in things like high pulls and the like, especially for the intermediate lifter.
Eh, if youre doing high pulls youre shrugging your traps or in the case of an o-lift probably not shrugging at all to make way for the "OH shrug" in a snatch. I can see why they might work in theory but Ive never done them and dont see the practical applications to it. Im not knocking the routine or CW, these are just ramblings from an aspiring o-lifter. Its late [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/quote]Haha, I know what you mean about late night rambling. I guess a lot of it comes from what our training goals are. You want to be an oly lifter, I want to be a strongman. So I tend to automatically look at lifts and how they would benifit me as a strongman. I can see a lot of application there. And it also just seems like a cool variation, the scapular retractors don't often see a lot of explosive movement.
Danny
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They might help in the overhand pull, in which case they should be done with some sort of rope. You could do explosive work with those just to develop that aspect so that you can get the weight moving, and then on an ME day pull a train
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
I can also see them being a pretty good exercise for Atlas stones or log clean and presses. Both involve that explosive contraction that you would get with an explosive row. A lot of times its just a matter of muscling it up any way you can.
Pulling a train would be kickass. But the real secret to overhand pulling is learning how to use the low back and having quick hands. The faster you can re-grip the rope and recover the better you will do on your pull.
Danny
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Thanks Danny, I have been reading so much over the oast few weeks cus I am on break from college. Just trying to figure out how to optimize my workouts and your help has been great. Some of CW's and CT's is kinda complex at times but I think I might start incorporting it into my lifting "philosophy"...lol.
RipStone... I can definately understand how there principals can be a little confusing, especially some of CT's stuff. The key to lifting the best YOU can, though, is doing what you plan to do. Trying new things, keeping what works, and figuring out what doesn't. Good luck man!
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Originally posted by DKing: I can also see them being a pretty good exercise for Atlas stones or log clean and presses. Both involve that explosive contraction that you would get with an explosive row. A lot of times its just a matter of muscling it up any way you can.
Pulling a train would be kickass. But the real secret to overhand pulling is learning how to use the low back and having quick hands. The faster you can re-grip the rope and recover the better you will do on your pull.
Danny
Eh, lift the stone quickly and lift heavy stones if you want that effect. Behold:
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
Great thread... Im just curious though, as a beginner, how effectivley can you increase your endurance through the workout you posted? I would have thought some running would be in place.
David... I'm looking for muscular endurance, not so much straight-up cardio vascular endurance. In fact, I hate running. I think its the most god-awful boring thing EVER! I mountain bike a fair bit as well as rollerblade when the weather is good, so I work on my cardio endurance that way.
The "endurance" part of my routine comes during Workout B. More reps and shorter rest periods, although that's not the actual goal of that day. Furthermore, farmers walks can be brutal if you've never done them before!
EDIT: David, another reason there's not really any cardio is because it eats up valuable calories I need for muscle repair if I want to see any type of actual strength gains.
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Originally posted by sharkbait31: David... I'm looking for muscular endurance, not so much straight-up cardio vascular endurance. In fact, I hate running. I think its the most god-awful boring thing EVER! I mountain bike a fair bit as well as rollerblade when the weather is good, so I work on my cardio endurance that way.
The "endurance" part of my routine comes during Workout B. More reps and shorter rest periods, although that's not the actual goal of that day. Furthermore, farmers walks can be brutal if you've never done them before!
EDIT: David, another reason there's not really any cardio is because it eats up valuable calories I need for muscle repair if I want to see any type of actual strength gains.
No need to run when youve got the penis lines [img]tongue.gif[/img]
__________________
"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
farmer's walks: grab the two heaviest dumbells you can handle and walk around with them for a set time interval. I've chosen 6 minutes. If i cannot hold them any longer, i put them down and then pick them back up and keep going, until my time is up. I could only hit 2 minutes last time before total failure, so i need to choose a lower weight.
As for what muscular endurance is, its basically being able to handle loads (ok, bad word choice! to life weights) for a longer period of time. There's no single sport that "hits it at the core."
The idea of muscular endurance is a little odd, because all endurance really involves muscles too. The kind i'm talking about though is also sometimes labeled GPP, or general physical preparedness. It just means that i can carry and handle weight without getting tired as quickly.
Hope that helps!
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1. How do you plan to progress on the explosive day?? Try to improve bar speed or increase load?
2. For the farmer's walks I tried 4 sets of 90 seconds because that was how I thought you had set it up. Only used 10kg dumbbells but managed all four sets. Any reason to change what I've been doing and try 1 six minute set?
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