Your assistance is needed STAT! I hate to steer traffic off of this site, but there is a thread that you really must read at T-mag... in the photos section, it is called: Indoboard Military Press with two 70lb kettlebells by Mike Mahler. There is an interesting development that needs that HARTMAN certified magical touch that only you can provide. Go HERE and take no prisoners!!!
Okay, here's my post on T-mag. I tried not to be a dick but I was bit rushed. I hope it wasn't misinterpreted.
Mike,
You are to be congratulated on achieving a great physique and performing a neat trick. However...
I'm failing to see how indo board training will improve anything but indo board training.
You mentioned that it transfers to skateboarding, snowboarding, and surfing (SSS). What particular qualities were you referring to?
SSS require the center of gravity to travel to extremes outside the base of support quite frequently. To do the same on an indo board would result in you picking a lot of grass out of your teeth.
An indo board is an unstable but a relatively reliable environment (your not doing it rolling down an ever changing hill but rather in a limited space) whereas SSS are unstable and an unreliable environment.
There's also an issue of optic flow (perception of movement). SSS has much greater demands of optic flow to allow the use of feedforward to make adjustments to ever changing terrain. The indo board does not.
Any total body athletic endeavor has specific requirements in regard to balance. I'm not seeing the specific transfers here. Perhaps a general training effect (GPP) on some level, but not a specific transfer.
If you were to take a kid who had never been on a skateboard and trained him solely on an indo board then put him on a skateboard, he'd be a lousy skateboarder.
People that do well very quickly in activities requiring various forms of balance do well because their nervous systems are more adaptable to such activities. Not because of tranfer from one activity to another.
Even to use it effectively as supplementary balance training doubtful. You'd have to prove things like indo board training after spending 8 hours on skateboard training makes better skateboarders. I doubt it could be done.
For any athlete, skill development must be acquired and practiced in the environment in which they compete.
Hey, if you enjoy it and provides you with some level of satisfaction, I'm the last guy tell you not to do it. To promote it as something that will enhance unrelated performance, I think is misguided.
For a gymnast to become proficient on a balance beam they train on a balance beam.
Skateboarders should train on skateboards.
Snowboarders should train on snow boards.
Surfers should train on surf boards.
We haven't even discussed the limited force production during weight training on unstable surfaces. But I'll leave that for another time.
I don't mean this as a personal attack and I hope it wasn't perceived as such. I wish you the best in your training and teaching. I'd be happy to sit in on one of your seminars if you ever get to Indy (the amateur sports capital of the World!)
Wait for the flames. Although, I don't think you'll get any I thought that was a good post.
The only reason I said wait for flames is I am sure T-mag readers are going to stand up for Mike. No matter how he trains. And your a nobody on T-mag. I think your right to a point. I think there needs to be more reasearch done on. Transfer for a skateboard/Surfer/snowboarder on an indo - board though before I say there is absolutly no transfer.
It's not whether there is no transfer but rather specific transfer.
Any form of training can contribute to general physical preparation. Oftentimes just improving general fitness qualities can improve performance in deconditioned individuals.
The question (which I doubt very strongly) is whether there is a significant enough specific transfer to any other activity to warrant doing something like an indo board when you could be doing something that is 100% specific like skateboarding, snowboarding, or surfing.
For what it's worth Bill, I agree with you. Even training on a Concept II rowing ergometer on sliders has poor transfer to on-water rowing performance. And that's about as specific as one can get without actually being on the water.
Ahhh....Bill, by posting on t-mag, you have actually added some substance to those never ending threads loaded with back-patting posters.
I don't think you were a Dick at all, the reality is though, that you will be seen as a Dick in the eyes of the rabid-gymrat-t-mag clan. I love it, there are too many people out there blinded by "fallacy training", too many people who are looking for the next great circus trick. Nice job Bill, I think you blinded them with SCIENCE! (did I age myself right there with the Thomas Dolby line????). Take care!
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Speed, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Canyons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
What do think about the tricks that can be prefomed on the indo board, Such as Ollies, Acid Drops, Shuv - its, Pipeline, Hang 10's could those be tranfered to the sport skateboard, snowboard, surfing?
__________________
In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
Not to toot your horn too much, but that was one of the best posts I've read on t-mag, excellent. As a young and aspiring strength and conditioning guru, right now I pride myself on being able to disagree with gurus on certain points, and not think ever think anyones ways are best but there are very few things I disagree with you on, and that was an excellent post. Too bad your into golf and not football
__________________
DKing: I would rather lift with naked old dudes
One of my football players just made the Indy Star newspaper having set a 300 yard shuttle record at camp. He is a walk-on and now listed at #2 on the depth chart at linebacker. He also hits a mean 320 yard drive when ever he needs to.
Bill Hartman, Don't Let The Golf Thing Fool Ya.
P.S. Another of my guys is going into camp 10# heavier without losing any speed. His coaches found out about his weight and are concerned he's going to be slow. Just wait!
Bill,
at least with golfers you know that the average golfer can afford you on an ongoing basis. Now if you really wanted to fill a niche you should do sport-specific training for polo players!
JP,
The closest I get to polo is a client who does dressage and my bro and his wife own 2 race horses. Hmmm...I wonder what the incidence of rotator cuff injuries is with polo players and how do the horses hold on to the barbells?? [Note to self...call Prince Charles].
Also...
A gracious thank you to those of you who found my post worthy. Your comments are much appreciated.
Bill Hartman, Too shy, shy, hush hush, eye to eye (that's for you dos!)
Uh-oh... Looks like Mike Mahler finally decided to reply to you. I am afraid he bit off a bit more than he could chew, claiming that your "thinking is flawed". Check it out!
Here's my T-mag response to Mike Mahler's comments about my "flawed thinking"
*Mike thanks for the response…if I may add…
Bill hartman,
Thanks for the post and I understand where you are coming from. However, your line of thinking is flawed at best and here is why. You say that skateboarders and surfers should just skate or surf to get better at either one.
Bill: At no time did I say that skateboarders and surfers should just skate or surf. I was responding to your comments of transfer from indo board to skateboarding, snowboarding, and surfing. Specificity was my issue, not eliminating supplementary training. Just as any other athlete SSS’ers will have abilities that can be augmented to improve performance. Please notice that I said abilities which are different from skills. SSS are skills not abilities. We do not have generic balance abilities but rather utilize exteroceptors, proprioceptors, vestibular information, and vision in a very specific manner dependent on the demands of the task. These demands include whether the body is stable or unstable with or withou limb movement, the body is moving with or without limb movement, whether the surface is stationary with or without variability or whether the surface is moving with or without variability. Indo board has specific demands which are different from SSS’ing.
Bill: I believe I did give you credit for performing a rather difficult movement (it truly is remarkable) and that it most likely contributed to your GPP (as can many forms of training) so it is not a total waste. As I said before, if you enjoy it, keep doing it. As you well know compliance and consistency can be a challenge when it comes to training. I say keep it interesting.
Of course, the majority of an athlete's time should be spent doing his or her sport. However, to say that is all that they should do is overly simplistic. That is like saying that football players should not lift weights since they do not lift weights on the field or that MMA fighters should not do pushups or bodyweight squats since they do not do those exercises in the ring.
Bill: Once again I never said that supplementary training was not a requirement for improving performance nor did I make any reference to MMA fighters or football players.
We train with weights and balance boards and kettlebells and other drills to make our bodies stronger increase propiorecption, body awareness etc.
Bill: With very specific results, not a generalized transfer to another unrelated activity
Kettlebell drills such as snatches and swings develop tremendous hip thrust power that anyu combat athlete will benefit from.
Bill: As do squats, snatches with barbell, jump squats, explosive step up, jumping and don’t forget sparring practice that includes throws! I don’t necessarily disagree with you here. Power and rate of force development are certainly a trainable qualities in the hip extension movement, but it is specific to hip extension. Therefore, that ability (referring to power and RFD) can be utilized in variety of sporting events which include powerful hip extension.
MMA fighter Frank shamrock did not become a great fighter by only fighting.
Bill: I am very aware of that (wasn’t there an article on him a while back)
He is a conditioning maniac and does a great deal of bodyweight drills, balance board training, weight training etc.
Bill: I would hope so. But all those activities contribute in a specific way to augment abilities or simply in GPP (which is certainly of great value to many athletes). If he is fighting while standing on a balance board then he should certainly practice it as a form of SPP. Otherwise, it’s just GPP and probably has no transfer to his skills as a fighter.
Of course, the majority of his time is spent fighting and working on techniques.
Bill: Nothing is more specific than the sport itself. You are correct. This is the perfect method to develop sport specific energy systems, balance/kinesthetic demands, and technical skills.
But he would be the first to say that he would not be where he is if he did not have exceptional conditioning.
Bill: I would agree that proper conditioning is a necessity. It also provides employment for us strength coaches.
Also anyone that skates or surfs is going to see immediately how mastering the indoboard will carry over to surfing, snowboarding, and skateboarding.
Bill: As I mentioned before, you’ll have a hard time providing anything but subjective opinion in such a scenario. Athletes who perform well on unstable surfaces and unstable moving surfaces tend to do so because they are more adaptable to such activities. That’s why they are better skateboarders than many of those who try. Just like many people are more gifted to be stronger or faster than others regardless of the training routine.
Could you do indoboard training only in place of those activities and expect to be good at them, of course not.
Bill: Then why not just develop the skill in the environment in which it is intended as I stated in the first place. Skateboarding provide a 100% skill transfer to skateboarding.
Mike Mahler
Bill: Mike, I’m sure there will be plenty of people who agree with you and disgree with me. That’s what makes these forums interesting, fun, and even educational (not to mention the pics of the hot chicks). I certainly have no ill will toward you and respect your efforts. I am also certain you have much to offer the S & C community, otherwise you would not have so many fans on this forum. You and I will just have to agree to disagree on my “flawed” thinking. I choose not to blindly accept the teachings of others simply because they present their information with authority. That’s what keeping an open mind is all about, is it not? I find that the more I question why we should or should not do things the more there is to learn. May we both continue to learn and teach successfully.
Your a hit over at t-mag. You should post more over there. Not to take away from Jp's site. But, nice stuff. Anyways, I am having a fun time in this blackout.
-Silas
__________________
In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
Your a hit over at t-mag. You should post more over there. Not to take away from Jp's site. But, nice stuff. Anyways, I am having a fun time in this blackout.
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