Dos------>CHAOS Training????

[tootall_paul]

For those of us who were unable to attend the NSCA conference could you explain what CHAOS training is or point me towards a book or article?

Paul <-----Holding His Breath

[Jean-Paul]

I second that... Lets hear it. When Bill reviewed the NSCA conference he told us that we would all LOVE it, so now I wanna see what you got.

Oh, and I think that Tootall_Paul has probably died by now from lack of oxygen to the brain. Better hurry... you don't want any more deaths on your hands.

[dos]

You guys are TOO funny!

Well, CHAOS speed training is basically a system emphasizing "open" agility and quickness drills. We (Jim Liston and myself) have developed an acronym (C.H.A.O.S) that actually describes the teaching progression.

The base of our system is predicated by the speed demands of real sport. This being said, we choose to emphasize agility over linear speed. We also choose to emphasise chaotic, unpredictable drills over traditonal "closed" drils (pro agility, 3 cone, T-Drill etc.). We believe that traditional closed drills are characterized as "programmed" and are highly trainable. We also believe that the trainability factor of these drills can often lead to tremendous performances in these drills that might often lead to an overestimated speed ability in a real-life situation (due to the lack of reactive demands)....much like we often see in the NFL combines There is a reason these prospects go to combine $$gurus to "figure out" these tests right?!

Anyway, the CHAOS training system is based on this premise and our drills are almost limitless when you start thinking of the "sport-specific" types of movements and visual or audible cues that an athlete might have to deal with in his/her sport.

We are currently in the copyrighting and trademarking process for all of our stuff and will be looking to have a video/DVD (and possible manual) available by next summer. We will probably also be publishing an article in the NSCA Journal pretty soon. In the meantime, try adding some "chaotic" unpredictable twists to your agility drills....you'll find out a lot about your athletes REAL fast.

You folks can email me @ dosremedios@sbcglobal.net if you have more specific questions. Take care!
Cougar Strength Homepage

[Bill Hartman]

dos,

Do you have any vid clips from your NSCA presentation that you can post somewhere to give everyone an idea of what you're talking about?

Bill Hartman

[Jean-Paul]

Thanks for responding Coach. So by linear I presume you are referring to 40 yard dash, bench press and squat as some kind of benchmark of how good the athlete will perform on the field. It does seem rather silly that on the NFL level that they are still using those tests instead of some kind of agility test. How can you find out how well an athlete responds to the total chaos that is football if you don't submit them to random and chaotic stimulis?

Do you find that shuttle drills are a waste? I don't think that they are necessarily bad, but, as will the other tests they use, this is something you can train specifically, and the movement is very predictable.

I really like this idea. Bill was right on with his assessment of you guys. I wish I could have seen you speak in person. Being reviewed as highly as Tudor Bompa is quite a testement to what you guys are doing and how well you present it.

Do you have any suggestions for some exercises that I can use in the gym on my clients? Also, I am a pretty avid mountain biker. I know that is not your area, but do you have any training suggestions other than what I am doing already, which is just riding a LOT (put in over 200 miles in the last few weeks of riding)? Does this style of training have any applications for prehab/rehab or is it strictly for young, uninjured joints?

Thanks again!

[dos]

Bill,

We actually don't at this time.....It is pretty frustrating as we are doing the whole copyrighting/trademarking deal right now and haven't had much time to get anything out there yet. The feedback has been awesome....I have had tons of emails from the NSCA presentation asking about video etc. Also bugs me that the NSCA is still doing audiotapes instead of making video available from the presentations.

I might have some drills available on my college website pretty soon but I can't promise any dates yet. I will keep everyone up to date on what's out there. Take care!

[dos]

JP,

I will quote your poste here so that I can go back and answer each question [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks for responding Coach. So by linear I presume you are referring to 40 yard dash, bench press and squat as some kind of benchmark of how good the athlete will perform on the field. It does seem rather silly that on the NFL level that they are still using those tests instead of some kind of agility test. How can you find out how well an athlete responds to the total chaos that is football if you don't submit them to random and chaotic stimulis?

Do you find that shuttle drills are a waste? I don't think that they are necessarily bad, but, as will the other tests they use, this is something you can train specifically, and the movement is very predictable.

I really like this idea. Bill was right on with his assessment of you guys. I wish I could have seen you speak in person. Being reviewed as highly as Tudor Bompa is quite a testement to what you guys are doing and how well you present it.

Do you have any suggestions for some exercises that I can use in the gym on my clients? Also, I am a pretty avid mountain biker. I know that is not your area, but do you have any training suggestions other than what I am doing already, which is just riding a LOT (put in over 200 miles in the last few weeks of riding)? Does this style of training have any applications for prehab/rehab or is it strictly for young, uninjured joints?

Hit it on the head! The fact the the NFL is willing to spend millions on a kid who was "on the bubble" but NOW is the real deal due to his combine performance is not only stupid...it's downright scary! We are now producing "all-combine" players due to the many tricks and secret nuances that these performance coaches are teaching their clients. In the big picture, doesn't this just NOT LOOK RIGHT?! What could be more specific than demanding and training speed with all the reactive demands an athlete will REALLY face?!

As far as the shuttle being a waste, I say NO. There is a place for closed drills as they can teach the foundation to better technique when chaos sets it. For example, you can really focus on things like keeping your center of mass over your base of support, lowering your COG, keeping your feet under your hips, not cutting/ planting on the inside foot when changing direction etc. You really don't have time to focus on these things in the truly chaotic drills.

We need to address a few issues as prerequisites to solid sport-speed. The first and foremost is DECELERATION. If there is anything i seem to pound into my athletes, it is being able to STOP. Many injuries occur during deceleration whether it be from a strength or from a technique standpoint. We as coaches need to work, work, work the BRAKES. That would be one group of exercises that i would suggest with your clients...the simple hop-n-stops and jump-n-stick landings. I have our kids progress from in-place to horizontal to lateral jumps with "stick" landings (holding for 2 sec.). You would be surprised how many "strong" athletes lack the ability to put on the brakes when 100% of their bodyweight riding on it.

Since we know that so much of sport-speed is dependant on an athlete's ability to shorten the amortization phase, From this point, we move into addressing this (stretch-shortening cycle) and look at the deceleration-into-acceleration process.

As far as your mountain biking goes, I actually ride quite a bit and also teaching spinning classes at a local club....I don't,however, put in 200+mi. per week! You are a monster! I like the application of cycling (interval-style) with many of our athletes. I have spoken to a few people in the past who felt that cycling was very specific to swimmers due to the push-push system of the legs. I take our soccer teams into spinning classes with me during their "doubles" traiing as a change-up to there MASSIVE amounts of fieldwork. We really emphasize the intervals with heavy-hard hills followed by flats or sprints....really playing around their anaerobic threshold. We often times have kids flat-out BONK near the end of a 60 min. ride.

Lastly, to be mentioned in the same sentence as Tudor Bompa seems silly to me (but it does make me smile!). The man is a legend and I love to hear him speak. We really felt great about our information and we felt that there was a need for some change in the traditional sport-speed training style. Our bottom line was this, once you see how easy and effective it is to implement chaos into your training you'll find yourself using closed drills less and less and less....

You guys in this forum are great! Take care!

Oh, one last thing. Dr. Bompa talked of a huge factor in speed development....this being the shortening of the propulsion phase. This is accomplished by imparting more force into the ground upon direction change. Look at the amount of force that an athlete will impart in a closed vs. an open drill. An athlete's feet might not even make a noise (on a gym floor)..it's more of a "tap" rahter than a "BOOM" in a traditional programmed cone drill. On the other hand, when he/she doesn't know when he/she will have to stop and change direction we always, 100% ALWAYS will see a much greater display of force into the ground upon changing direction....you will HEAR it! It's as if the unpredictability brings out a sense of urgency that just isn't there with the closed drills?!

[Bill Hartman]

dos,

Great post...thanks. I thought spinning was for fat chicks?!!

Bill Hartman

[Jean-Paul]

Thanks Coach Dos! That really sounds great. I want some CHAOS in my gym!

One little thing I ought to clear up...
You said:

I don't,however, put in 200+mi. per week! You are a monster!

I actually meant over 200 miles in the last three weeks, not in the last week. Dang, I would be a monster if I was getting in that kind of mileage. I have never taken a spinning class, but I am getting ready to start spinning at my gym as soon as my current construction project is finished. I want to take one of those lactic threshold tests. THere is a place that can measure it for you for $40 here in LR.

[dos]

NOTHING in the world like being a hot room with 50 other cyclists sweating their behinds off, teetering around lactic threshold.....ahhh, I can feel the throw-up moving up my esophagus now! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I think you'll love it JP....many of the road cyclists who take my classes say it is a big part of their training schedule.

Hey Bill....you need to see some of the girls in my classes

[tootall_paul]

Awesome! I can't wait to see some of the drills that you have come up with. What Liston makes the Galaxy go through is pretty intense.

http://www.cybersoccernews.com/colum...107loney.shtml

[Jean-Paul]

WOW! That workout looks absolutely BRUTAL. I LOVE IT!

I have a couple of questions though, Dos...

Here is the routine, followed by questions:

Here's the training program, as it was listed on January 2, 2002. Four sets each of the following:

Tug of war, x10. This isn't actually a full on tug of war, with Dunseth pulling Bivens or Halpenny across the room like the proverbial dead cat. It's the motions of a tug of war, alternating from “winning” to “losing”. As with most of the CATZ exercises, it encompasses a full range of body movements. This will become important later, so underline that for future reference.

The box jump, x12. Three boxes are lined up - one foot high, eighteen inches, and two feet. You jump onto the first two, and jump over the last.

Dolly jump and ducky walk, x2. It only sounds like Eric Cartman's tea party. Your feet are on a dolly (a little more sophisticated than a Federal Express box mover, but accurate for the purposes of this discussion). In the walk, you pull yourself forward for about ten yards, then push yourself backwards the way you came. The jump part is a sort of push-up that propels you forward. It sounds like a wonderful way to live out the lyric “Excuse me while I kiss this floor,” but no one introduced cartilage to carpet while I was there. Another common thread of these exercises is that there's a reason these are done by professional athletes instead of ordinary civilians.

Golf squat, x30. Get into a squat - closer to the floor, the better. Keep your back straight. Grasp a dumbbell in front of you, lift it over one shoulder, then the other.

Frog jumps - 4 laps. A rope ladder about a foot wide and five yards long (I suppose it doesn't have to be a rope ladder, but this is what they used) is placed in front of you, and you simply jump forward and over the ladder. Land on your outside foot, jump from your inside foot. No frogs were harmed in the course of this exercise.

Water buckets, x24. Much like the golf squat, only you place one leg in front of the other, you hold a dumbbell in each hand, and you turn your hips as you bring the weight upwards. No water was harmed in the course of this exercise.

Squat stance hold tricep extension, x15. This is an exercise that is crying out for a nickname, in my opinion.[Liston suggests “sumo stance tricep blaster.” I wonder how Musashimaru would do in a CATZ workout. Maybe Jack Edwards could announce it.]

Dumbbell push jerk, x12. So, you're in a squat, and you have weights in each hand. Jump upwards, lifting the weights over your head, and land with one leg extended in front, and one leg extended behind. Probably the calisthenic equivalent of walking and chewing gum at the same time, but I felt relieved that I didn't inadvertently brain myself while working out which leg was supposed to go forward.

Burpees, x12. An old standby - down into a squat, thrust legs back, do a pushup, bring the legs back, jump up, repeat.

Then the screamer. Three pushups, then one jump, high as you can. Then six pushups and two jumps. Then nine pushups and three jumps. Then twelve pushups and four jumps. Fifteen pushups, five jumps. And then back down the scale.

There. Was that hard?
-------------------------------------------------

Jesus! You guys would have been a hit at Saddam's prisons... A workout like that would most assuredly extract a confession out of me, guilty or not!

Okay, but seriously...

On the golf squat, is this like a "sots press" where you have a dumbbell in one hand while in a deep squat position, then press it while maintaining a static squat? Or are you pressing up and passing the DB to the other hand, or do I start with the weight down in front of me, lift it to a press position and pass the DB to the other hand? I am having a hard time visualizing this one.

On the frog jumps, I can understand landing on the outside foot, but how can you jump across off your inside foot? I haven't actually tried them yet, but in my mind the mechanics seem a bit awkward.

The water buckets I can't picture at all. "Like a golf squat, only one leg in front of other?" Are you in a squat position, or maybe a lunge postion? Which direction are your feet pointing, and which way do you turn your hips? And what are you doing with the dumbbells? Laterally raising them or pressing them?

Squat stance hold tricep extension? There was no description on the article of this exercise and I have never heard of it before.

Dumbbell push jerk sounds an awful lot like alternating jump lunges, except that you basically start from a squat position. Am I seeing this totally wrong?

Sorry to barrage you with so many questions so early in the morning. That is an impressive lineup of exercises, and I doubt SERIOUSLY whether I could get through it myself, which is humbling.

[dos]

JP,

#1 Jim Liston IS Brutal
#2 I will try to help with some of the exercises but I don't work with Jim on a regular basis....we developed the CHAOS stuff together over the years.

Ok....

On the golf squat, is this like a "sots press" where you have a dumbbell in one hand while in a deep squat position, then press it while maintaining a static squat? Or are you pressing up and passing the DB to the other hand, or do I start with the weight down in front of me, lift it to a press position and pass the DB to the other hand? I am having a hard time visualizing this one.

The golf swquats are basically mimicking a golf swing-type rotation where you would sink down and as you come up, you rotate the weight over to the right shoulder and then sink and come up (rotate) the opposite way.

On the frog jumps, I can understand landing on the outside foot, but how can you jump across off your inside foot? I haven't actually tried them yet, but in my mind the mechanics seem a bit awkward.

Got me...I think the guy decribing the drill was mixed-up...I think these are basically frog jumps moving forward+laterally over the ladder

The water buckets I can't picture at all. "Like a golf squat, only one leg in front of other?" Are you in a squat position, or maybe a lunge postion? Which direction are your feet pointing, and which way do you turn your hips? And what are you doing with the dumbbells? Laterally raising them or pressing them?

I think these are started in a split-staggered stance (like a lunge but a bit wider base). Picture standing in a lunge position w/ left foot forward. Holding a DB with both hands, you now start by squatting down to reach the DB outside your left hip as you bend down....you then rotate up and back and finish with the DB over the right shoulder (like you are pouring a water bucket over your shoulder)finishing tall.

Squat stance hold tricep extension? There was no description on the article of this exercise and I have never heard of it before.

I picture this as as tricep extensions overhead while sitting in a deep, wide base squat position...brutal

Dumbbell push jerk sounds an awful lot like alternating jump lunges, except that you basically start from a squat position. Am I seeing this totally wrong?

No jump lunges, rather, think of a DB push-press with a jerk (a la Olympic lifting). DB's start at the shoulders with athlete in a sound base, dip and drive the weights upward to extension as the body drives under the weights and the feet split with one foot forward (bent)and one back (almost straight). Basically an Olympic jerk only with DB's

Sorry to barrage you with so many questions so early in the morning. That is an impressive lineup of exercises, and I doubt SERIOUSLY whether I could get through it myself, which is humbling

Like any exercise description, it is often VERY hard to picture without the visual. Jim and I actually sat down for a long time and talked about our different terminologies etc. so that we would be on the same page. I have seen kids going through this type of circuit @ his CATZ facility and I can tell you IT IS NO JOKE. You better be ready to WORK. The neat thing with many soccer athletes is it is often VERY HARD to break
their will!

[Jean-Paul]

The golf swquats are basically mimicking a golf swing-type rotation where you would sink down and as you come up, you rotate the weight over to the right shoulder and then sink and come up (rotate) the opposite way.

Hm... I think I do need to see this motion performed. I think I have an idea of what you are saying, but I could be off. Do you know a site anywhere with video of this movement? I doubt that ExRx has it, although they do have a ton of exercises referenced.

[Alwyn]

Jp,

Start golf squats upright with a dumbbell over your right shoulder.

Drop into a squat, and as you do , drop the DB between your legs.

As you stand up, lift the DB over your left shoulder.

the hips fully rotate during the exercise.

At the end of the swing merely reverse the direction and repeat.

Hope that helps, between Dos and my directions you'll be completely lost !!

AC

[Bill Hartman]

Bill Hartman (uh, that's me) actually has a photo of himself performing golf squats (get it... "Your Golf Fitness Coach" ) but for some reason it's not up on his site yet.

Perhaps he can put it up there for you some time soon.

JP, can you swing a golf club? Face a mirror (okay, you're hair looks fine [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) Now pivot so you can put yourself in your end follow-through position (shoulders and hips 90 degrees to mirror) using a DB for your club(that is also the end of the golf squat). From there move down into a position that looks like you're deadlifting your DB facing the mirror (that's the squat part). Repeat to the other side. When you get good at them, you can go pretty darn fast.

This is a great dynamic movement for golfers to increase hip flexibility, control weight shift, and increase core strength.

Bill Hartman, HARTMAN certified

P.S. Okay, now someone else give some directions...this is fun!

[Jean-Paul]

I guess it is the hip rotation that I am having trouble picturing... I am in a squat, but somewhere in there I am doing a hip twist? Also, am I holding the dumbbell with one hand or both??

[Jean-Paul]

Bill, if you email that to me I can get it up on the net so I can link to it in the forum here.

[Bill Hartman]

I can have it too you in the wee hours this evening.

You'd be holding the DB with both hands.

Bill

[Jean-Paul]

So Bill, you made any headway with those alleged photos?

[Bill Hartman]

thanks for the heads up. Busy mind...

they are in your email

Bill

[Jean-Paul]

OOOOOooooohhhh! Now I get it! Thanks Bill. I may just put it on the net (with your permission) so that others may benefit from this illustration. THANKS!

[Bill Hartman]

Feel free to do so.

Bill

[tootall_paul]

Similar idea

http://www.i-a-r-t.com/articles/quickresponse.html