Here's a question for you on Bench press, Incline press, and decline press. Whats your take on it? People, say the are for middle, upper, lower pecs.
I don't buy that bodybuilding nonsense. People gets to focus on working upper, middle, lower pecs. If you know what I mean.
I do believe that we are mutiplating angles here and crating loads in diffrent angles but to say something like incline bench press works your upper pecs or decline works the lower pecs and bench press work the middle is obsered. Should we be looking at the movement instead and what the purpose of the movement is for instead of what muscle it works?
In Health,
Silas Chen
__________________
In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
I know this was directed towards Bill, but I did some first-hand research on this a while back that you may find interesting.
I'll be brief...
I helped out with a surface EMG study one time on this exact topic (informal 'study'... we were just in the lab one day, thought of this idea and tested it out for a few weeks).
Muscular contractions work on certain physiological laws and principals, one of which is all or none.
All of the EMG stuff we did showed that regardless of the angle, when the pec major muscle contracted, it contracted. Neurons throughout the muscle were stimulated and lead to a muscular contraction. There was no angular difference detected.
The principal of 'all or none' appears to be true... either the entire muscle contracts, or no part of it does.
Are you then saying that with a fan shaped muscle like the pecs, that training angles does not change the fibers which are recruited or emphasized under load?
The lower most fibers and the upper most fibers of pec major pull at ~90 degrees from one another. Why?
The upper fibers of pec major insert more distal on the humerus than do the lower fibers (via the tendon of course). Why?
I've also read something along the lines that Brian has mentioned, but you still must consider form follows function. While there may be EMG activity throughout, EMG does not measure tension in the fibers (we need a tensiometer).
Consider an incline press which one could consider to emphasize upper pec. There may be greater tension on the clavicular portion of pec major while the lower/mid portions provide a stabilizing component to movement to allow smooth motion of the humerus. If upper and lower fibers pulled at the same tension, the humerus would horizontally adduct perpendicular to your body (following the vector created by forces at ~90 degrees from one another) and you'd end up with a heavy barbell on your lap (unless of course you have exceptional shoulder strength and scapular stability).
That was excatly what I was trying to get at. "all or none law" seems to hold true. Again as trainer's, Coaches, ect. Clients should be informed more on how and movement can do for them rather then what muscle it works. Do I sound far fetch here?
-Silas Chen
__________________
In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
All or none refers to motor units not entire muscles...correct?
Read this reference...it may answer and inspire some new questions along the lines of what you are seeking
ANTONIO, JOSE. 2000: Nonuniform Response of Skeletal Muscle to Heavy Resistance Training: Can Bodybuilders Induce Regional Muscle Hypertrophy?. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 14, No. 1, pp. 102–113.
Bill Hartman
P.S. If you can't track it down, let me know. I'll copy it and email it to you. I'd post it, but it's a tad long.
Unfortunately, the uni doesn't have a subscription to this journal and I'm too lazy to go searching down the hallways to find someone with one. Can you send me the article? Did they use needle electrodes, or surface EMG?
I'm still of the mind that it doesn't seem to matter whether you do the press flat, incline or decline from a 'fibre' activation point of view; but have yet to read a study to show me otherwise. Surface EMG is far too insensitive to really make the differentiation, and I'm not sure even typical needle EMG would do the trick. I think there's a neat optical way to look at actual myosin/actin interactions, but it's been a while since I've done anything in that field; and I suspect it's not an in vivo technique.
Bill, I too would be interested in reading it. If you don't mind, go ahead and post it. If it exceeds the word limit (I think it is 15,000) then break it into how ever many posts. It won't clog things up in here if that is what you are worried about.
So why is it I press less sets in the incline position than I do the flat bench position?
I added the incline bench press to every other session and alternate with flat bench, to provoke some variety in my session, and I noticed I couldnt push my normal load of 115lbs 4/6 I actually failed on the 6th rep of the 3rd set... This tells me that ive recruited new fibres, and they struggled.
Originally posted by David.W: I love these archived threads...!!
So why is it I press less sets in the incline position than I do the flat bench position?
I added the incline bench press to every other session and alternate with flat bench, to provoke some variety in my session, and I noticed I couldnt push my normal load of 115lbs 4/6 I actually failed on the 6th rep of the 3rd set... This tells me that ive recruited new fibres, and they struggled.
True or false?
the same thing happened to me. I had been doing flat bench press for about 3 monthes. I decided (finally ) to switch things up and do the inclined bench press. I found that i struggled to finished two sets of 8.
is what david said true. have i recruited new fibers? and have they struggled? is that why i couldn't bench as much on an incline bench then i could when i was on a flat bench?
thanks a lot
__________________
"Rust on a nail builds tetanus. Rust on a barbell builds character, strength, and attitude." -EC
"Don't spend your life wishing. Spend it doing." -FishrCutB8
"You're a mutant, like a snake with two heads or a cat shy one nipple. Be thankful that your mutation is helpful." - LD
Man, every once in a while we get these undead threads...It's alliiiiiiive!
1. Have you recruited fibres you didn't recruit before?
No idea. I don't think anyone knows definitively, nor, do I think, anyone has actually looked because it involves messy painful things they only do to animals--and whether incline, decline or flat bench press recruits different fibres is, in the grand scheme of things, not important. Heck, one of my funding criticisms for asking for money to do my study on testing a possible new and effective way to treat tennis elbow (which everyone and their DOG has) was that tennis elbow wasn't important enough to warrant study.
HOWEVER, there's some new stuff coming out out of Calgary that says that the physiological theories on muscle fibre recruitment (specifically on fast twitch and slow twitch fibres) might be wrong. Mind you, there's also work being done that shows that the cross-bridge theory of muscle contraction doesn't always hold either...Dum dum DUM!
2. Did the proverbial new fibres struggle?
If you recruited 'em, it's unlikely they struggled. Not only are neural switches all or none, so is fibre contraction. As far as we know.
3. So why can't I bench as much on flat bench press and incline bench press?
There could be a lot of reasons, but the one that I think seems most plausible is that it's not biomechanically the most effective position to be benching in. You've opened up the angle between your arms and your torso, which alters the position of the bar in relation to the pec muscle.
A rope can have the same length and tension, but fail to generate sufficient torque to produce a moment around a point, depending on its position relative to the torque arm (i.e. direction of force).
__________________
"Rust on a nail builds tetanus. Rust on a barbell builds character, strength, and attitude." -EC
"Don't spend your life wishing. Spend it doing." -FishrCutB8
"You're a mutant, like a snake with two heads or a cat shy one nipple. Be thankful that your mutation is helpful." - LD
Yes thanks alot...the Biomechanical answer makes total sense!
I think im going to continue with alternating different types of chest-work every other work out from my flatbench, to ensure the variety in my routine. If the neural switches are all or none, and so is fibre contraction, this type of variant sounds safe...I think!?!?lol!!
Originally posted by Bill Hartman: Are you then saying that with a fan shaped muscle like the pecs, that training angles does not change the fibers which are recruited or emphasized under load?
The lower most fibers and the upper most fibers of pec major pull at ~90 degrees from one another. Why?
The upper fibers of pec major insert more distal on the humerus than do the lower fibers (via the tendon of course). Why?
I've also read something along the lines that Brian has mentioned, but you still must consider form follows function. While there may be EMG activity throughout, EMG does not measure tension in the fibers (we need a tensiometer).
Consider an incline press which one could consider to emphasize upper pec. There may be greater tension on the clavicular portion of pec major while the lower/mid portions provide a stabilizing component to movement to allow smooth motion of the humerus. If upper and lower fibers pulled at the same tension, the humerus would horizontally adduct perpendicular to your body (following the vector created by forces at ~90 degrees from one another) and you'd end up with a heavy barbell on your lap (unless of course you have exceptional shoulder strength and scapular stability).
Interesting, huh?
Bill Hartman, President, Brian Grasso Fan Club
Well I can barely understand what all of this is saying . I have to say that the different benches do provide a different emphasis on different portions, and do indeed produce a different stimulus. Perform only flat bench presses for a long stint of time, then switch back to incline bench press. You will probably be incredibly sore. I understand that soreness is not an indicator of strength/size gains in any sense of the word, but this does mean you have new exersize soreness, which would mean you are working the muscle differently correct? I guess I was trying to further on Mr. Hartman's response (as if it really needs to be furthered on. So, I agree with Bill Hartman. Meaningless reply by BTY.
Incline bench hits the shoulders alot more than a flat bench or decline. So you are still recruiting the same pectoral muscles but you are also recruiting more shoulders and less lats. Same thing with decline I think less shoulders more lats. Since lats are generally stronger that is why the decline is usally stronger than flat and flat than incline.
) to switch things up and do the inclined bench press. I found that i struggled to finished two sets of 8. 
. I have to say that the different benches do provide a different emphasis on different portions, and do indeed produce a different stimulus. Perform only flat bench presses for a long stint of time, then switch back to incline bench press. You will probably be incredibly sore. I understand that soreness is not an indicator of strength/size gains in any sense of the word, but this does mean you have new exersize soreness, which would mean you are working the muscle differently correct? I guess I was trying to further on Mr. Hartman's response (as if it really needs to be furthered on. So, I agree with Bill Hartman. Meaningless reply by BTY.
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