My bench has gone from 125 x 5 to 140 x 5, and although I wish it had gone up more, I suppose I can't complain too much. By eating a lot, I've gained about 8lbs. Because I'm new to lifting, I'm not sure exactly how much is fat and how much is muscle (I don't have access to bodyfat calipers). That being said, I can still see my abs somewhat, and they haven't lost a ridiculous amount of definition, just some, which seems okay for someone who went from 135ish-145ish.
Here's my question. I misread the article, and did OVT phase 2 IMMEDIATELY after phase 1, without any lower-volume training in-between sessions. So I've been doing high volume training for 7 weeks straight.
Once I am done doing OVT (in about a week), I want to continue bulking for about 4-8 weeks or so (depending upon how I feel), then go into a cutting cycle for wrestling (to drop to 143ish lbs for the start of the season after Thanksgiving).
My question is, which program would you reccomend doing for the 4 weeks immediately after OVT, and which program AFTER that for cutting (if you suggest changing routines for bulking/cutting cycles). I have not taken a week off for about 10ish weeks, so by the time I'm done this program, I think a week off might be in order (according to Ian King, you should take a full week off every 12 weeks or so).
Because I did not do lower volume training in-between phase 1 and 2 of OVT, what lower-volume workout would you reccomend directly after I'm finished OVT, and could you post a link (or write up) the routine for me? After this lower-volume training, I would need a new program for cutting (or perhaps a bit more bulking, depending upon how I feel). I have heard good things about Chad Waterbury's anti-bodybuilding routine, and same goes for Ripped, Rugged, and Dense. I would be looking probably for a 5x5 type strength routine I think.
Thanks for the help, and sorry for rambling a little bit. If you have any questions, just ask, and I'll clarify.
PS - all the programs above listed can be found at www.t-mag.com
After ANY volume intensive program, you must follow with a lower volume program or you'll be risking overtraining.
Your guess at 5x5 is a good one. Use sets x reps per workout to monitor total volume. Something like Chad's Anti-bodybuilding Program is still volume intensive (but it is also a terrific program design). 50 reps per exercise is higher volume compared to 25 reps at 5 x 5.
If you want to prepare for wrestling, stay on a fairly consistent STRENGTH program. Manipulate your weight with sensible eating patterns rather than limiting calories or going nuts with volume in the weight room and aerobic activity (wrestling is not aerobic). Reductions in bodyfat will not limit your performance. Reductions in bodyweight by dehydration and loss of muscle (from aerobic training and higher volume without food) will.
You need to hang on to as much muscle as possible to wrestle effectively, or prepare to count the lights on the ceiling during your matches.
I never understood why anyone would want to get on a mat to wrestle when underfed, underhydrated, and over-dehydrated to lower performance levels. Better to be strong, fed, and hydrated to kick someone's ass.
Hey Bill, do you think that going on 8wks doing 5*5 is detrimental to strength and or mass gains. Im in a similar boat: I wasnt aware of the correction made on the forum about the routine, therefore have been 5*5 for 6 wks so far. Currently, the weights on my lifts have still been trending upward, and I dont feel the effects of overtraining. I was wondering if you would advise cutting this routine at six weeks and take a rest week. While Im not in any sports, I still would like to increase strength and mass. Originally I was planning on either doing phase 2 or 3 of Ian Kings Bring ON the Pain program or do a split lift program where the volume is about 3-5 sets of 4 per day (Im still deciding).
Bill: could you reccomend a SPECIFIC strength routine for me to follow? A link, or a basic 5x5 routine you made yourself would be FANTASTIC! Keep in mind though, I will not be able to go to the gym on weekends, but can go Monday-Friday no problem.
Here is what I would do for the initial 2 weeks after OVT I believe:
Monday:
- Bench press 5 x 5 (working up to your 5RM)
- Power clean 5 x 5 (working up to your 5RM)
- Squat 5 x 5 (working up to your 5RM)
Wednesday:
- Incline bench press 5 x 5 (working to a challenging, but easily managealbe load)
- Deadlift 5 x 5 (working to a challenging, but easily managealbe load)
- Front squat 5 x 5 (working to a challenging, but easily managealbe load)
Friday
- Military press 5 x 5 (light and very fast)
- Barbell rowing 5 x 5 (light and very fast)
- Jump squat 5 x 5 (15-20% of your max squat)
Doing this for two weeks. I'll add 1-2 assistance exercise at each workout, doing 2-3 sets of 10-12 reps.
Then, I want a routine that would build strength in a basic lifting sense: ie increasing my 5-7RM on bench, squats, deadlifts, presses, rows, etc. I thought 5x5 was very good for this, and it is very simple to do, so that's why I wanted to do another 5x5 type thing.
All in all though, I don't really care. I just want to bulk for another 4 weeks or so AFTER I finish with OVT, then start a cutting cycle. I need a program that will keep my strength up, probably something with lower volume... I do not particularly want to do meltdown (or something like meltdown), b/c I will do HIIT for the metabolic effects of circuit training. I have 23 hours of the day to worry about losing weight, but one hour in the gym to worry about getting stronger!
So, if you could throw me a routine (basic strength routine) that I can follow after I am finished with OVT, I'd like it a lot. I only got a bit stronger with OVT - which I guess is okay, considering it's a hypertrophy program, but now I want some serious STRENGTH!! I was even thinking about starting OVT AGAIN, only WITHOUT the isolation exercises supersets. Either that, or Chad Waterbury's anti-bodybuilding (http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/244anti2.html). Problem with anti-BB is that I couldn't go to the gym every alternating day, so I'd either do M/W/F or M/T/Th/F split.
No %RMs... no having to go on weekends. Thus, a very attractive program for me!
However, if Waterbury's program could be run more effectively for strength gains on a M/W/F or M/T/Th/F basis, that would be what I'd do. Or, a different program entirely...?
D,
I am just not sure that you need to be doing all that at 15. You may be further along than other 15 year olds, but it seems like you are skipping a step. For example, would you do a sprint routine that Michael Johnson would have done ten years ago or one like he would do now? He is coordinated and his strength development has been progressive, accumulating power and speed over a period of time. Doing the same routine he does now would have no value to you, or in fact may be harmful to you. You have some coordination issues may want to consider before firing off on some advanced routine that you got off of T-Mag.
The 5 x 5 looks very basic and very solid (so of course, I like it).
You may want to tweak it just a tad to 3 x 5. Sequencing of exercises is also a bit of an issue, so keep this in mind.
Power exercises first
Heaviest large muscle/multiple joint exercises next
Smaller single joint exercises last
Your last day shows power cleans in the middle of the workout. Make them first on the day you would have the most energy...probably the first day.
Be very careful with the intensity. Trying to go 3x5 full out every workout will wear and tear on you a bit. Only go to max effort 1 week every 3 or 4.
The Split program has a GPP period built into it which would probably be a good thing following 5x5. The change in the speed of the oly variations will also provide a nice novel stimulus.
Going 8 weeks on 5x5 is not unusual assuming you are varying your intensities. To try to go all out for 8 weeks makes my joints hurt just thinking about it. Depending on how you feel, an active rest week (low intensity, low volume) may do you some good to transition to another routine.
First off, I'm turning 17 in 3 weeks. No biggie though.
Secondly, thanks a lot for the help Bill. So, would you reccomend the routine I posted on this site, or anti-bodybuilding? If I did anti-bb, I would either choose between a M/W/F or a M/T/Th/F split (I do not have access to the gym on weekends)
If I did do my 5x5, I would do it after 2 weeks on the low volume routine I posted above (the M/W/F split), and follow it to the T (except doing all power exercises first in that day).
What do you think? Thank you again, very VERY much, for the help.
Also, why would you suggest doing it as a 3x5 instead of 5x5? Could I do 5x5 for some exercises, and 3x5 for others?
I've also heard some good things about 8x3 for strength, but that rep range seems awfully low to me. It'd be difficult to do without constantly getting spotters.
How much rest time do you think would be good in between sets? I was thinking 2-3mins.
D,
I was basing that recommendation on your current strength levels and potential sports-related energy expenditures. Most folks overestimate their tolerance to exercise/training stimulus.
If you only have 3 sets to focus your efforts on, your quality of effort will be higher and you face less risk of overtraining. This is also a factor if you plan on some level of competitive sport. You must include all these factors when designing your program.
You have a limited amount of energy and recuperative capacity (you can't do everything, all the time). To perform well on the mat AND make appreciable gains in muscle size is very difficult. Lower volumes with higher intensity levels work best in this case.
Are you doing any wrestling training/conditioning at this point? If not, when?
No, this strength training program would be followed alone. I don't even do HIIT or cardio, except for a 10-15minute warmup. I also am eating a lot of food, which helps me recuperate.
I will be starting wrestling season the week after Thanksgiving, so I think I can handle significantly more volume than I will be able to during the actual wrestling season.
My goals of this strength training program would be to dramatically increase my 5RM for the basic exercises (squat, power cleans, weighted chins, and MOST IMPORTANTLY bench!). I don't really need a 'sport specific' program, I just want some good strength increases that are applicable to weightlifting scenarios.
So... what would you suggest, knowing this? Do you like the program I have posted, and if not, what modifications would you make? Or could you post a link to a different program?
The only reason I hesitate on a lot of programs is because I find it difficult to calculate %RM's for any exercise besides bench... Like finding the %RM for barbell row or dips...
First, don't get so caught up in the bench press. It is one exercise and means nothing without training the rest of your body with equal intensity and effort.
Second, here is a percent max calculator: http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html
Take it with a grain of salt. It is simply an estimation and changes a great deal with your training age.
Third, commit to a program and stick with it. I already mentioned that I liked your 5x5 program a lot. I would still go with 3x5 to start until you get used to the training volume at that intensity.
Keep a solid journal and then experiment with adding some sets here and there but make sure to unload every month or so to allow adaptations to occur. This called the delayed training effect. You must do this or your gains will plateau very quickly.
Okay, I'm going to start this program after 2 weeks of following the FIRST program I posted in this thread (the extremely easy/low volume one). Then I will take one week ENTIRELY off, since I haven't done that in a long time. That way my body can recuperate a bit from the high demand of OVT.
When you say to back off occasionally or I will plateau easily... what does that actually imply doing? Every 8 weeks or so just going through the motions with 50% of my 1RM?
Also, on each set every day, would you suggest going 'heavy'? That is, no matter which day of the week it is, trying to use my heaviest 5RM load???
I will probably do this, keeping the weights constant for each set until I can complete all 25 reps, then I'll add 5lbs to the weight. I do plan on keeping a journal, too, so I can track my progress.
If this sounds like a good plan, just let me know. I will update this thread as I go along, and hopefully progress!
The only 'supplementary' exercises I'm doing are close grip benches and barbell curls in a 5x5 format. You wouldn't suggest adding any additional work, would you? Or would that make it too high-volume? Thanks again, I have posted questions about this everywhere, and this forum (specifically YOU) have helped me about 1,000x more than any other place.
Well, we are special here (and I don't mean goin' to school on the short bus special either )...
Simple rules to follow:
1. After an extensive phase (more volume/less intensity) follow with an intensive phase (less volume/more intensity).
2. Load and unload progressively:
Example:
Week#1 70%
Week#2 75%
Week#3 65% (unload)
Week#4 80%
Week#5 70% based on NEW estimated 1RM
OR
Week#1 70%
Week#2 75%
Week#3 80%
Week#4 65% (unload)
Week#5 70% based on NEW estimated 1RM
OR
Week#1 3 x 10RM (Base)
Week#2 6 x 8 (volume = 48 reps)
Week#3 6 x 4 (intensity)
Week#4 3 x 6 (unload = 18 reps)
Week#5 3 x 10RM (heavier than week 1)
3. Every workout has a purpose. Even lower intensity workouts to increase work capacity, rehab, unloading, etc.
I would not increase volume by adding exercises. No need right now. Track your progress and then decide.
Standard 5 x 5 would use the same weights throughout. I believe Poliquin uses something like 14 reps as a standard to choose your weights. If you can't get at least 14 total reps on your 5 sets, the weight is too heavy.
For instance:
1 x 5
1 x 4
1 x 3
1 x 2
1 x 2
Would be too heavy.
Going heavy depends on how long you'll be on 5 x 5. Try a 3 week loading and then unload a week. Another great way to use 5 x 5 is to use about 88% of your 1RM the first workout and then only 80% the next time you use that exercise.
Hope I didn't give you too much info.
Perhaps it's time to write a book?
Bill Hartman
(P.S. I originally said 18 reps to determine starting weights...it's 14 per Poliquin)
Okay I'm starting this bad boy today. Going to change friday's power clean to a clean and press, to hit my shoulders, but otherwise I'm not altering it.
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