I will call him today and direct him to this thread. Maybe we can get the answer from the man himself. All I know is that you have to have some serious balance to do it based on my past experience. Not too sure what the transfer is, but if you can do it then you are a stud.
Do the benefits of the extra balance work outweight the MASSIVE amount of load that must be taken off the bar to complete this lift? Also, does the high risk of injury make this a prudent endeavor? I love the Cirque de Soleil(sp) stuff... I just don't know if I would train my athletes that way
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Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Speed, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Canyons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
You know me, Bill. I listen to all and respect freedom of opinion. I've never claimed to know everything and strive to learn as much as I can.
With this particular debate, my question is one of cost/benefit ratio. I have seen videotape footage of a lifter performing a Swiss Ball clean. I'm just curious what at that extreme cost is the perceived benefit is.
Hmmmm, let's see..... When "Swiss-ball Clean" is recognized as an Olympic event, I MIGHT consider the risk/benefit ratio acceptable for a world class athlete competing in THAT event. Apart from that scenario.......for 99.99999999999% of the population, "first, do no harm"......
I would like to point out that the cleans on a Swiss Ball are in is Renegade Training for Xtreme Athletes book and not in his football book. He doesn't recommend everyone doing cleans on top of swiss balls just xtreme athletes. I know that still doesn't answer your question, but I just thought I would chime in with some more irrelevant information. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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I look at a field I see grass I look at a hill I see a training session
I agree w/ tootall_paul these exercise are geared towards Xtreme Athletes. Not, your average athelte or trainee. If you want to try it go ahead. But, I do think that cleans on a swiss ball may help a xtreme athlete. Especailly someone that may be doing down hill mountain biking.
In Health,
Silas S Chen
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In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
"Xtreme" athletes already spend countless hours training on their unstable apparatus [bike, skateboard, snow board, etc.] that develops sport-specific qualities.
Why do you think that any further training in a DIFFERENT unstable atmosphere would be of any benefit?
It, doesn't snow all the time in NJ, and it gets cold in the winter so how do u BMX or surf in NJ? Is it ideally that athletes will move to a climate that suites their sports how would one train on unstable surface in the off season? The only thing I can think off is using a appratus like the indo board or swiss ball in the off-session. True that most Xtreme athletes do work on their Bikes, skateboard, snowboard, surfboard. But are they on it all the time NO!
Also Bill as I recall most athlete regardless of it been Xtreme Sports or not do spend a lot more time in their sport the in the weight room.
Prime example a gymnst or a swimmer, or how about this one in order to win a marthon most elite marathoners will run no weight training or anythingeslse that deals with anearobic threashold.
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In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
I agree with you 100% that most athletes spend most of their time training specifically in their sport. I also agree with you 100% that it does not snow all the time in NJ.
For balance training other than on the specific apparatus itself (referring to skateboards, bikes, etc.)to be effective there must be crossover effect in performance.
The Experiment
Take a set of twins who have never been on a skateboard. Train one on a skateboard train the other on an Indo board, bongo board, swiss ball, whatever.
Then have them switch.
If there is crossover effect, they should have little difficulty when the switch in apparatus is made. The Indo boarder should be as good a skate boarder as the skateboarder is originally.
Do you believe this would happen? I don't. The balance demands are different and specific to the activity. That's why tightrope walkers train on tightropes.
As Tudor Bompa stated at the NSCA conf. Gymnasts have great balance on a balance beam because they spend 4 hours a day training on a balance beam, not on a wobble board, swiss ball, or any other gadget.
Bill
P.S. No need to argue this point over and over. We could just agree to disagree???
Here's a question for you on Bench press, Incline press, and decline press. Whats your take on it? People, say the are for middle, upper, lower pecs.
I don't buy that bodybuilding nonsense. People gets to focus on working upper, middle, lower pecs. If you know what I mean.
I do believe that we are mutiplating angles here and crating loads in diffrent angles but to say something like incline bench press works your upper pecs or decline works the lower pecs and bench press work the middle is obsered. Should we be looking at the movement instead and what the purpose of the movement is for instead of what muscle it works?
I know I am going way off topic here sorry.
In Health,
Silas Chen
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In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
I agree w/ tootall_paul these exercise are geared towards Xtreme Athletes. Not, your average athelte or trainee. If you want to try it go ahead. But, I do think that cleans on a swiss ball may help a xtreme athlete. Especailly someone that may be doing down hill mountain biking.
You bet your behind that doing cleans on a swiss ball would NOT be for your average Joe. The point I made earlier seems to be reinforced as more people try to make the point that actually doing such a ridiculous exercise is "specific" to anything other than actually doing cleans on a swiss ball. BTW, how would this be specific to a downhill mountain biker?
Also, I have seen video clips of people trying to do these types of exercises and I have yet to see an acctual "clean" or "snatch" performed on a swiss ball or an indo/bongo-board.....They usually look more like a barbell front raise or an upright row into a make-shift "catch". To correctly perform a power clean, one must actually move his/her feet outward (leaving the ground)....folks, this aint' happening on a swiss ball.
Lastly, even IF you could jump off the ball and land in a catch position (hope you have insurance...), what type of load do you think you would be using compared to what you could do on the ground? I would guess a fraction at best, this being the case, what strength/power benefits would be we looking at?. I'm with Bill, no need to beat a dead horse here, just trying to make some sense out of this nonsense. Take care!
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Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Speed, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Canyons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
Let me first point out that I will be a college freshmen studying economics and english this fall and not a trainer, coach, fitness professional, or anyone who knows more than 2 cents about training.
But, didn't Mel Siff say that you can only apply 60% of you 1-rep max like say on squat or benchpress on the football field. (If that is incorrect please disregard the rest of this post b/c it will make even less sense.) Well when working on a Swiss ball aren't you using ~60% percent of your 1RM. I have never done them so I am not sure, but I would assume it is in that range. So by training on a swiss ball aren't you using the approximate amount of force that you would be able to generate under actual playing/riding/whatever conditions?
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I look at a field I see grass I look at a hill I see a training session
If this is the case (that we can only use 60% of what we work with traditionally), then wouldn't it make more sense to train heavier? Since it is relative, I would rather have 60% of 300lbs rather than 60% of 120lbs. right? If this theory holds true, then you can only count on 60% of what you can do on a Swiss ball right?
BTW, I would love to see a 300lb. power cleaner do 180lbs. on a swiss ball (once again, hope you have insurance)
As Tudor Bompa says....until we start performing our sports on a swiss ball, the laws of specificity will always prevail. The Swiss Ball is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more unstable than any bike or skateboard (especially if you are trying to do something ridiculous on it).
Note: I still don't believe we are actually talking about "power cleans" here (Swiss ball) since the technique on the ball is totally different than traditional cleans.
Take Care!
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Speed, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Canyons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
Coach Dos,
I am presuming that you are primarily against cleans on a ball, since your site features athletes working on balance devices like this:
and this:
In the past I have been known to do some crazy crap on the ball, but I have made what you might call a paradigm shift. That being said, I do still use the ball for certain exercises, like pushups like you have pictured, or dumbbell presses using the ball as a bench. I do not squat on the ball anymore though. Curious if you are altogether against them.
If you have gone back and read any earlier posts, you will see that Bill talks a lot of about "feedback" and "feedforward" mechanisms... Do you feel that there is any transfer whatsoever doing standing balance work like the above pictured, focusing on feedback?
Dos: I have personally seen Coach davies do a clean on a indo board, properly with his feet going up in the air and land on the indo board perfectly. I myself have done jump squats on the indo-board. Not w/ weights yet. Although, I haven't seen Coach Davies do a clean yet on the swiss ball yet. Thats the key yet. I guess I'll see it soon. The next time he comes around NJ.
Now as far as cleans benfiting downhill mountain biking I highly believe it will. Why? Did you ever Downhill mountain bike Dos? Have you ever seen a Downhill mountain bike? They are not your regular mountain bikes. They look and weight more like Motocycles (dirt bikes).
As far as a swiss ball clean benfit someone on a down hill mountain bike. It gives the unstable surface part and the weight that he or she can control on the unstable surface.I can't really articulate what I mean when I am writting. I hope you see where I am going with this.
In Health,
Silas C.
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In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
Also, I feel kind off sad that your not doing squats on the swiss ball anymore. If you feel like you are getting a challenge from doing swiss ball squats. Why not do them? Thats what fitness is really all about in the end isn't? Is to give your body the challenge it needs in order to progress. Am I wrong here?
In Health,
Silas Chen
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In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
I use balls for push-ups (usually with my female athletes as they are actually more like an unstable chair pushp due to the height) and bridge work etc. I use the Bosu for some stabilization exercises such as hop and stops etc. I have seen lots of ankle injuries with many of our volleyball, basketball, football athletes and we try to do lots of ankle mobility/stabilization drills when possible. I feel that the Bosu gives us the some great proprioceptive work (I also use the sand quite a bit for ankling drills etc.).
I am not AT ALL against the balls....rather, I am against putting athletes at risk for benefits that probably don't exist.
As far as performing power cleans on an indo-board...while I still think this has questionable value (due to the decrease in load) and is dangerous....it is not nearly as dangerous as trying to jump on a stability board. I still think back to listening to J.C. Santana as told me the story of how he tore his ACL trying to do some standing/jumping movements on a swiss ball.
Lastly, no, I have never downhill mountain biked but I have never been an elite ice skater or an All-American Softball player either. I do, however, still have to train them. I still don't see how a swiss ball can be compared to a bicycle...does anybody out there agree with that? Take care.
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Speed, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Canyons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
Oh, I do also use the balls as a bench for bench press variations using DB's
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Speed, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Canyons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
Don't even know why i am debating this, I am still trying to stand on a swiss ball w/o holding onto a power rack. But I don't really see how it would carry over into sports except maybe surfing, skiing, and water sports like that.
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I look at a field I see grass I look at a hill I see a training session
Your entire reason for doing a clean - triple extension, rate of force development etc is eliminated because you have to use such low loads.
I train a pro-motocross rider (I'm guessing it's similar enough to the demands of downhill mountain biking that I can use it as a comparison). I still see no TRANSFER (far more important than specificity)from a swiss ball clean to riding.
I do see a transfer from doing olympic lifts.
I also see a transfer from doing some Swiss Ball work.
Mixing them together - no.
AC
PS - I can jump on a ball, squat on a ball etc etc. I am still not a pro motocross rider [img]smile.gif[/img]
1. Blow up swiss ball
2. Sit swiss ball in a corner
3. Sit on swiss ball between sets of other exercises if there are no benches available
4. Wipe dust off swiss ball prior to use
5. Use a swiss ball sparingly in exercise regression/progression when more productive exercises cannot be performed
6. Put swiss ball back in the corner
Bill Hartman, swiss ball fanatic [img]smile.gif[/img]
cleans on a swiss ball?!? now there is a truely stupid idea!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm sorry, but certain exercises were not meant to be done on a swiss ball. cleans is one of those exercises. let's see, positives ......hmmmm, maybe some; negatives, gee where do we start! fellas, i'm all for creativity. honestly, i trained at westside barbell in columbus for a time and if you showed louie that shit he'd laugh at you and tell you to get the fuck out of his gym....so would i.....enough said
Tim, thanks for summing up the consensus of this forum, and for adding that nice little bit of attitude for extra spice.
BTW, this Louie guy you mentioned... is that the guy with the pink goatee who can bench press a bus?
One more thing, just to pick at you a little more since I can see that you are easily agitated... You really should work on your sentence structure and punctuation.
Now I feel like a guy who just beat a bee hive with a stick! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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