Let me start off by getting my stats out of the way. I am 16 years old, 5'8", 135lbs. I am looking to add SIZE and STRENGTH gains (SIZE being more important, although if some strength came along with those size gains - particularly in the bench press - that would be nice). I have my protein intake in check, along with all my food. I use fitday, and am eating above my maintenance calories, and eating "clean".
Now, for the final piece, and the least-neglected: TRAINING!. Over the past 4 months I've used Monday/Thursday Tuesday/Friday splits, along with working out full body 3x per week (neither in particular, my schedule has been insane, so I've just made sure to lift whenever I could, getting a few days rest before lifitng the same body parts again).
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Here comes the question:
I wanted to know what you guys thought of two different workouts I've seen. The first is the classic Iron Manual from the menshealth website. This would have me working out 3 days per week. I would do the routine with the supersets as stated, doing the intermediate/advanced phase 1... and just go through it. I'm not sure if I could superset all the exercises like it says, due to the gym being a little packed... but I could do them in supersets instead of quads probably (although this wouldn't be the best for cardiovascular fitness, I'm not preoccupied about that - I'm a natural athlete and in good shape already from running, etc).
The other workout option would be to combine Ian King's upper and lower body training programs (the 12 week ones) from his website www.kingsports.net in the articles section. This would have me lifting 4 days per week. I'm a little nervous about King, due to his very extreme viewpoints (including stretching, increasing the weight each week (not training to failure for the first 2 weeks in each cycle), and ESPECIALLY overtraining in particular, he seems to be very worried about that ...), Also the TYPES of exercises I'd be doing for the first 3 weeks are, frankly, embarrassing. But I would give it a shot if it meant strength/size gains.
The third routine is off of jpfitness.com... you can read it right here http://www.jpfitness.com/maximum.html. It's basically a 5-day split doing one bodypart per week. So I'd lift 5x per week.
The one thing about the Ian King workout and jpfitness is that I'd only hit each bodypart ONCE per week? After lifting full body 3x per week... hitting each bodypart 3x in the same week, this seems kind of odd to me. I know I'd do a LOT of sets per bodypart, but the recovery time seems almost excessive. I might be wrong though, let me know your thoughts on this.
Now, help me out:
So, for me, what would you guys suggest? Remember, I'm bulking, and have been lifting while eating under maintenance for the past 4 months. My squat/lower body has gotten stronger, along with biceps/triceps, although my bench press is still terrible (I bench 105 about 10-12x for 3 sets...).
Which did you guys have better results with, and what have your experiences been with the two different programs?? Which do you think I should try, the Iron Manual or Ian King? Which would be better for STRENGTH, and which for SIZE? I know a lot of people have tried them out, so let me know!
Thanks a lot for the input, I can't wait to dedicate myself to lifting now that lacrosse is almost over!
Hey D,
For mass gains I would definitely suggest working the muscle out only once a week with a pretty high intensity level. I don't know Kings workout, but I am going to go check it out.
What are his views on stretching? I have been undergoing a change a perspective on it myself, so I am curious if his ideas are in line with my own.
My 5 day split workout is very general, but it is pretty good for bulking. I don't have a problem with full body workouts, but if you are bulking and don't have a broken down injury ridden body like my own, they may not be too effective for packing on the mass.
For strength gains you will definitely have to change the focus of your workouts. Bill Hartman, who posts in this forum quite a bit, may have some better suggestions for that goal than I would. Maybe we can pull him into this thread.
Hey depsyrphor I would go more towards an Ian King type of work-out. 3x a week full body type work-outs remember your also a begginer and so your body will really respond to any type of work-out.
In health,
Silas C.
__________________
In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
depsyphor, for putting on size a 5-day split would be best.....one body part per day. You want to hit it hard and heavy...since you have a full week of rest, you'll be able to come back fresh and at 100% ready to hit it hard again.
This routine worked great for me, and as long as you keep up with those calories and that good clean diet...this should work for you too.
Dmac90 I agree w/ your post 100% but, this guy is a newbie and I don't advise new trainees to hit it hard and high intensity right away. You got to peridioze your work-outs. And also remember this is a biginner to so anything he does will make gains in strength and size. I just don't want to see him get burn out in years to come. When he trains like the way your suggesting.
I would agree to maybe throw in the 5x a week work-out lets say in your next training cycle. But start off w/ Ian Kings method. Less chance off overtraining.
In Health,
Silas C.
PS my spelling is horrible. I get flame for it all the time in T-mag ; )
__________________
In Health,
Silas S Chen Exercise Specialist @ MorganStanely Fitness Center Mid-town NYC
Well, I see some of you have differing opinions on the topic. Not surprising!
On the one hand, training ONE bodypart per day let's me absolutely destroy it. However... I almost always feel that my muscles are fully recovered in about 2-3 days after I work them out while following my full body routine. Will this change when I up the number of sets I do per bodypart? Will I stay worn out noticeably longer? It just seems like a week is a rather long time between workouts, but if it works, it works.
On the other hand, training full body 3x a week means I'll be LESS sore in 2-3 days, but I'll work out a lot more frequently.
JP - I really want your advice on this. You are the fitness guru [img]smile.gif[/img] Tell me what you think!
At your stage of the "game" you have several issues...
1. You are young (a good thing by the way) so as was mentioned by Silas you'll adapt to anything. This is absolutely true.
2. You are neurologically inefficient. You don't recruit a hell of a lot of muscle fibers at any one time. This is an adaptation which will come with heavier and more frequent training.
3. While you may be at a surplus caloric intake, it probably isn't enough. For "growing boys" the typical calculations for caloric intake are low estimates. In other words, you may actually be in deficit.
4. Your recovery ability is lower than you think. This goes along with your neurologic efficiency issue (all muscular adaptations are neuromuscular in origin) and your caloric intake issue. Unless you are a sloth during the day, other than your workout time, you also burn more calories from regular activities than the typical adult. This slows recovery.
With that in mind, consider the following:
1. To increase neural efficiency you must workout more frequently. One time per week per "body part" will slow down progress. Think at least twice per week. Your Mon/Thurs Tues/Friday split will work nicely. Train trunk muscles (chest, back, shoulders) on M & Th and Legs on T & F.
2. Increased frequency precludes you from training to failure. There is no research at all that states that you must train to failure to make maximum gains in size and strength. You must only achieve sufficient stress to cause adaptation in contractile units, energy storage, and organelle hypertrophy/hyperplasia. In fact, if you train too hard too often the organelles responsible for growth will not be able to keep up and progress will stop. Have you ever seen those guys in the gym who bust there ass to failure every set, every workout and never get anywhere? There's your answer.
3. Stick to basic exercises. Bench press, Rows, Standing Military Presses (not seated), Chins, Squats, Deadlifts, etc. Avoid attempts at isolation for the time being. It won't help. You'll recruit more muscle fiber in your basic exercises than any "isolation" movement.
4. Don't train arms, abs, calves, or forearms directly. Also, avoid aerobics like the plague. You need to give your body sufficient adaptation time. Now don't fret about the arm thing, you'll actually gain plenty of size. What does more for leg size/strength? Squats or knee extensions? Squats right? So think of the chins and presses as squats for your arms.
Try this for about 3 weeks:
Monday
Warm-up (general but no static stretching)
Explosive push-up 3-5 sets x 3 reps (start with 3 sets and increase by 1 set each week)
Bench Press 3 x 7,5,3
Dips 3 x 4-6
Plate Drops 3-5 x 3 (quickly pull a plate to your chest like a bent over row and drop it, but catch it before it reaches arms length)
Chins 3 x 4-6
BB Rows 3 x 7,5,3
Standing Military Press 3 x 7,5,3
Go Home at eat!
Tuesday
Warm-up (as monday)
Jump squats 3-5 x 3 (same progression as the push-ups with 30% of your best squat)
Back Squat 3 x 7,5,3
Romanian Deadlift 3 x 7,5,3
Go Home and eat
Thursday
Warm-up
explosive push-ups
Bench Press 3-5 x 8-10 (3 sets week 1 and add one set each week)
Dips 2 x max reps
Plate drops
Chins 2 x max reps
BB rows 3-5 x 8-10
Standing Military Press 3-5 x 8-10
Go home and eat
Friday
Warm-up
Jump Squats
Back Squat 3-5 x 8-10
Romanian Deadlift 3-5 x 8-10
Go home and eat
Week 1 intensity 2-3 reps shy of failure
Week 2 intensity 1-2 rep shy of failure
Week 3 intensity the set ends on the last rep you can complete without cheating or assistance.
Rest periods between sets should be 3-5 minutes for heavy sets and 2-3 minutes for lighter sets.
Adjust weights upward each week to accomodate intensity changes and strength increases.
Follow week three with a week of "easy training" with intensity similar to week 2
Try it, you'll like it. Then you'll be ready for the next step.
Bill Hartman
(Don't let the golf fitness thing throw you!)
Bill, that is an excellent routine. This leads me to another question that is something I meant to ask you about anyway.
Do you ever recommend static stretching? The more I learn about injuries and rehab, the more I am beginning to think that it should NOT be done. Warming up, perhaps some dynamic stretching, and if there are flexibility issues, "retraining" the muscle to move in a greater range of motion.
My massage therapist who works in my facility is a British Sports Therapy practitioner (same as ART actually), and he is certified in "active isolated stretching." Is this the same as static stretching? I would think not since it usually only involves very short (2 second) bursts of stretches, never holding a stretch. Also, I use PNF while stretching my clients hams and hips. Is this a bad practice? Before I wouldn't have thought so. I would think that it is not bad since the clients are applying force against resistance and, again, not holding the stretch.
All of this assumes that holding a stretch is a bad thing. I was taught in the beginning to hold a stretch for 10-20 seconds. To hear it from Ron Tillman, rehab specialist to more NFL athletes than I can count, doing a doorframe stretch for the shoulders is the worst thing you can do, and it only overstretches the shoulder capsule, never to return to its original prestretched size. I spoke with him last week about this, and he told me to go home, find my favorite sweater, and stretch it out for an hour, and then see if it will ever fit right again. Does this apply for the whole body? The most stretched muscle in the body is the hamstrings. As he pointed out, it is also the most injured muscle in the body for athletes. Coincidence? Tillman doesn't think so.
I am really interested in your point of view on this.
Depsyphor, didn't mean to hijack your thread. I do think that this is relavent since you are a young athlete, and therefore hopefully stand to benefit from learning these things before you go out and injure yourself. I couldn't have laid it out better than Bill did for your workout, so in my "expert" opinion, follow that recommendation to the letter!
I happen to be writing a functional flexibility manual for my golfers at this time so your post is rather timely.
Yes I do use some static stretches, but only for areas where the flexibility limitation is related to the connective tissue tightness limiting performance and not the nervous system. They are also good to break newbies into stretching to get them used to the discomfort associated with stretching. This is actually one of the prime reasons folks can increase their flexibility...the tolerance to stretch discomfort actually improves before any tissues actually elongate.
Most flexibility issues are related to chronic patterns of movement (tight hip flexors on cyclists) or positioning (kyphotic posture from sitting) which "sets" the length of the muscle from a neurologic standpoint. Dynamic stretching, PNF variations, and active range of motion under load (weight training) will increase functional range of motion much faster.
The theory behind AIS is that you sort of beat the stretch reflex by releasing the stretch before the reflex kicks in thus increasing the extensibility of the muscle. It's actually based on principles of PNF (there is nothing new in the training world...only "borrowed" principles with different names for sale at a higher price). The thing that they don't mention is that the stretch reflex is dependent on speed not just tension so you could do the same thing by moving into a stretch very slowly. The great thing about AIS is you could attach a name to it and sell certifications. Do we really need another certification?
(Hmmm...slower stretching...I think I'll call it "Decelerative Stretching Techniques" or DST and sell certifications for $500...What do you think?)
Regarding the doorframe stretch there is some good theory behind that. Most folks don't need more than 90 degrees of external rotation of the humerus to function. It's usually not the stretching that causes the problem but rather repetitive activity. Baseball pitchers would be an extreme example. The bench press also gets a lot of "bad press" in this respect as well but that depends on your genetic predisposition for shoulder mobility as the barbell bench press usually doesn't exceed normal horizontal adduction of the shoulder. The problem with many trainees is the thought that more stretch is better (think dumbbell bench presses) and doing too much of one thing. How many gyms have 1 squat rack and 3 bench press stations.
I think hamstrings are STATIC STRETCHED too much. What happens then is that you have zero strength at the end range. This creates a flexibility deficit (the difference between passive flexibility and active flexibility). If more folks would spend their time doing good mornings and Romanian Deadlifts(which decrease flexibility deficit), I think you'd see a lot fewer hamstring injuries. But you also have to realize that at higher levels of performance there are greater loads placed on the hammies (most sports require running which involves a lot repetitive loading of hamstrings), so to blame it on "over-stretching" is purely speculative BS. There is never one cause for all hamstring injuries. Even the best trained athletes break down at some point.
The issues with flexibility training is that you shouldn't stretch just to stretch. There needs to be a purpose. Identify a functional flexibility limitation and apply the proper technique to resolve the issue. Don't just stretch for stretchings sake.
Re. days training "per week"... your body doesn't know one day of the week from another. Your body only knows "recovery"....train when you feel strong and eager, you'll know pretty quick if you're not ready.
Every one says, "Listen to your body," reference rest/over-training. Listen to your body when it says, "Ready to go again!"
Will I stay worn out noticeably longer? It just seems like a week is a rather long time between workouts, but if it works, it works.
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