incline or decline

[Eric]

Which is better for working your chest. I've heard that incline's better and i've heard decline is better.

[Simon.]

Nothing is -=better=-.
Incline bench emphasizes your upper chest and decline empasizes your lower (though there isn't actually a LOWER chest) chest...

[CAchief]

well, which part of the chest are you looking to work? I like to use DB, so that factors in as well. Incline works more more upper, decline works more lower. I target my lower pecs w/ dips too, so if you do those you might want to stick with incline.

[igunick]

you could also use flat, which works the two more equally (but still more of the lower part)

[Kevin T.]

Switch things up. Do maybe a month of incline, then a month of flat and then a month of decline. Don't just do the same thing. Switch things up!

[chris_f]

Ok, maybe I have this all wrong, but I think you can't "target" particular parts of your chest. It's one big muscle (two, actually), but whatever the angle, you're engaging all activated fibers from top to bottom. Changing the angle only affects how much work each of the three major muscles which are involved are brought into play during the bench press.

For example, incline involves more frontal deltoid activation, while decline will place more of the weight on your triceps and remove much of it from your shoulders. Am I missing something?

[I. Kay]

Eric: From what I've read in your posts, I think that you're focusing on the wrong stuff. Well, not the "wrong" stuff, I guess... rather, unnecessary details. The things you seem to ask about are aspects of a routine that you tweak AFTER having developed a strong base for yourself.

As for your quest to gain weight, this is from Johnka to you (from back in December):

"Eric,
It sounds like you're an ecto like myself. I always had a hard time gaining strength and muscle also, until I tried a training and nutrition program (Scrawny to Brawny).

The first phase was corrective: working on your weaknesses to prevent injury later.

The next three phases focused on strength and hypertrophy in a very innovative approach that worked wonders for me.

I just finished it, and I put on 20 lbs, almost entirely muscle. My strength increased dramatically, and I gained almost no fat.

I'm getting my before and after pics developed right now, but I'll post them soon. Very dramatic difference!"

Scrawny to Brawny is out now and it works! I've gained 8 pounds in the last 5 weeks on it. Get it at Amazon for pretty cheap. Seriously, it's worth it!

[vandamme]

"Ok, maybe I have this all wrong, but I think you can't "target" particular parts of your chest. It's one big muscle (two, actually), but whatever the angle, you're engaging all activated fibers from top to bottom. Changing the angle only affects how much work each of the three major muscles which are involved are brought into play during the bench press.

For example, incline involves more frontal deltoid activation, while decline will place more of the weight on your triceps and remove much of it from your shoulders. Am I missing something?"

actually muscle fibre activation is very pattern specific. doing incline is not going to activate in the same pattern as falt bench.

[chris_f]

right, but it won't "target" your upper chest either. If a fiber is activated, its activated from top to bottom. You can't activate just a portion of a muscle fiber, right?

[bipennate]

The pectoralis major has three distinct anatomical heads that correspond to different positions of the humerus in relation to the body: the clavicular head (upper chest), the sternal head (middle) and the abdominal head (lower-although there is a greater genetic variability with distinct anatomical seperation of the abdominal head). While it is true that a contraction of a muscle fiber will run the length of that fiber, recruitment patterns will differ according to exercise variables (resistance, exercise, etc). Further, the pectoralis muscle is a convergent muscle orientation, meaning that the fibers spread outwards from the common insertion point (like a chinese fan) and will cause slightly different movements when one set of fibers contract vs. another. Therefore, with the upper arm at an approximately 30-45 degree angle with the thoracic with the positive x axis pointing in the caronal direction) more of the clavicular head fibers will respond during adduction, while adduction with the humerus at an angle 135-150 degrees will involve the abdominal head to the greatest extent. These are not distinct muscles, but seperations of fiber organization within the pectoralis itself.

[JoshDunn]

bipennate- i've never heard about that theory but that could be due to my ignorance.

i would have to agree with sharkbait. how i understand the phyiology of muscle fibers to be is that any movement recruits muscle fibers in a recruitment type form. When you start a movement the smallest and most specific muscle fibers are stimulated. These fatigue very quickly and more larger, faster, powerful fibers are recruited to assist with the movement (in this case the bench press). As they fatigue they recruit more fibers and so on and so on.

So the harder the tension that is required i.e. a heavy bench, then the small fibers fatigue quickly and the large powerful fibers take over to move the weight.

To get a bigger chest then the only was is to bench with a heavy weight and angles (to my knowledge) don't play a part that process at all.

Thats just how i understand it to be. I welcome any contradictions.
JOSH

[vandamme]

"right, but it won't "target" your upper chest either. If a fiber is activated, its activated from top to bottom. You can't activate just a portion of a muscle fiber, right?"

i understand what your saying yes fibres either get activated or don't either its firing 100 percent or its not. but you have them from top to bottom of your pecs, your certainly not activating all your fibres from top to bottom with one specific movement. thats what i'm saying. certain ones get activated in very pattern specific manner with each movement.

doing both incline and flat is a good thing imho because you certinaly will have a better level of development then someone doing only 1 movement because if recruits in a different pattern then flat. if fibres from top to bottom were activated doing both flat and incline then obviously you wouldn't need to do both.
lets just say incline will stimulate your chest differently then flat press will.

[bipennate]

Originally posted by JoshDunn:
how i understand the phyiology of muscle fibers to be is that any movement recruits muscle fibers in a recruitment type form. When you start a movement the smallest and most specific muscle fibers are stimulated. These fatigue very quickly and more larger, faster, powerful fibers are recruited to assist with the movement (in this case the bench press). As they fatigue they recruit more fibers and so on and so on.

So the harder the tension that is required i.e. a heavy bench, then the small fibers fatigue quickly and the large powerful fibers take over to move the weight.

To get a bigger chest then the only was is to bench with a heavy weight and angles (to my knowledge) don't play a part that process at all.

Well, you're on the right track, but there's more to it. What you are referring to is fiber types: the basic breakdown (although it is believed that muscle physiology is more varied than this) is the slow oxidative fiber (Type I), Fast oxidative (type IIa) and fast glycolytic (type IIb). The muscle fiber(s) and the efferent neuron that controls it/them (from the CNS) are known collectively as the motor unit . Type I fibers are the smallest (on average) fibers and motor units. They have a greater ability to resist fatigue, but this comes at the price of low abilities to generate force. On the opposite end of the spectrum, type IIb fibers are the largest fibers and motor units in the body, and can generate the most force. However, they also fatigue the quickest. In the 'middle' are the type IIa fibers, that share many of the fatigue resistive properties of Type I fibers, while generating more force (but not as much as type IIb). They are the porridge that Goldilocks ate! The difference in the individual abilities arises from their physiological design: type I fibers have higher amounts of mitochondria, greater capilary density, and high aerobic enzyme activity. Type IIb utilize glycogen for energy, which produces a large amount of energy (to be used in force production), but for a limited amount of time.

When you lift a weight, the body works on the method of 'the Size Principle,' which means that smaller (type I) motor units will be utilized first, followed by larger units, if needed. This is why it is usually advised that, if a lifter is trying to make significant gains in strength and hypertrophy, a significant portion of his 1RM should be used (>65%) in order to fascilitate a larger amount of total muscle fiber and tissue.

You're physiology understanding is correct...What you're missing has to do with biomechanics and anatomy. Muscle fibers are long strands of tissue (like microscopic strands of speghetti, really) that typically run the length of your muscle, or tendon to tendon. However, there are a number of different types of architectural designs when it comes to muscles. Biceps are arranged in a parallel (or fusiform) arrangement, where fibers are alligned side by side, in basically straight lines between tendons. Convergent muscles, like the gluteus medius, start at one tendon and then spread radially outwards; pennate muscles (which come in unipennate [tibialis posterior], bipennate -hehe-[rectus femoris] and multipennate [deltoids] orientations) are organized on an angle, like parking spaces in a parking deck. The bipennate and multipennate muscle orientations, while not being seperated muscles, do orient the fibers along distinct lines of angular force. Therefore, even though each of the movements is caused primarily by the deltoid, raising your arm to the front is caused by the anterior deltoid, raising laterally is the medial deltoid, and raising it behind your body in hyperextension is the posterior deltoid.

The pectoralis major is a pennated convergent muscle. There are seperated anatomical compartments that perform slightly different functions according to arm position during adduction. While it is true that you cannot isolate any single muscle, the effect of the pennation allows one area to produce the majority of the force at a given angle. Becuase the clavicular head's fibers spread from the insertion on the humerus upwards towards the top of the sternum and clavicle, when your arm is angled upwards, that portion of the pectoral will do the majority of the work. This is not the same as the seperate heads of the biceps (long and short): because the biceps are arranged in parallel orientation, there is no distinction of movement under contraction (although even this has been shown to be not entirely true: supinating the forearm under flexion has been shown to cause altering fiber recruitment that places a greater stress on the long head of the bicep).

I hope that made sense!

[chris_f]

Jesus Christ! What the hell do you do!?

"Occupation: ACSM HFI personal trainer, strength coach, and physical therapy doctoral student "

Well that explains it!

[JoshDunn]

ok, caught some of that. Will have to read it a few more times to grasp it all. Maybe after exams next week.
lol.

Thanks for extra info bipennate.

JOSH