Order of exercise theory question

[Snake_Plisken]

Order of exercise for weight training programs has consisted of performing large muscle groups exercises prior to exercising the smaller muscle groups. The thoery being by working the larger muscle groups first the maximal stimulus is applied to all of the muscles involved in an exercise. I have seen some literature about eastern european weight lifters and what they call pre exhaustive type training methods. the methods apparantly reversed the order of the exercises so that the small muscle groups are worked prior to the large muscle groups. The example I saw in the literature suggested leg extension exercises before the squat. Another example involved fatiguing synergistic movers before performing the main movement. The example was lat pulls before bench. Any conclusions on this from anyone? I would say it has not been demonstrated in any scientific research I can find. However, these eastern europeans swear by it.

[Jean-Paul]

Which Eastern Europeans swear by it? I have heard of pre-exhaustion, but only from bodybuilding mags that claim to have discovered Eastern Bloc training secrets. I have used pre-exhaustion in the past, but my current take on it is that it is not the most optimal and efficient manner in which to train. What is the point to it? If you have a chain of muscles that need to work together to move a large amount of weight, why take out one of your primary movers? All you will do at that point is put a heavier load on your support muscles, which aren't strong enough to handle the heavy loads by themselves.

BTW, just a minor correction on the pre-exhaustion example you presented. If you were following that protocol, you would pre-exhaust your triceps and/or shoulders before doing a bench press, and work your biceps before doing pulls. That is how you would do it properly, but again, I don't recommend it. Maybe some of the other experts in here could shed some light on it if there is any legitimacy to it.

[Snake_Plisken]

There is no documented research on it that I can find. I agree with you Jp until otherwise proven, but you cannot dismiss it either.

[DKing]

Marginally effective for muscle gains. Terrible for strength gains. There are better ways to accomplish your goals.

Danny

[Snake_Plisken]

The individual who presented the POSSIBILITY was steven Fleck ( a person who I consider a renowed exercise physiologist) not a bodybuilding mag writer.

[austintwo]

Ian King uses "pre-fatiguing" techniques in his Limping Legs and Super Strength routines (which I've done) and probably in others as well, but specifically cautions against using these routines more than once annually (they are 12-wk routines).

I'm not sure if "pre-fatigue" is different than what you read citing "pre-exhaust".

Hope this helps.

Pete

[DKing]

Where does Fleck mention it? Just curious because its not in his book Designing Resistance Training Programs anywhere.

Its been covered by a lot of different authors is the general consensus that its bad for strength gains and will work for hypertrophy but I still think its a technique I wouldn't use much.

Danny

[DKing]

Ignore the beggining of my last post I just found it. Turns out I can't read.

Danny

[Alwyn]

Pre exhaustion was covered in a recent journal if I recall.

It showed that when performed you actually recruited LESS motor units, as you couldn't handle any loading.

AC

[DKing]

Fleck mentions the HUGE decline in performance when performing pre-exhaust which to me would be a good indication that its not the best way to work something.

Plus he mentions the theory that if you fatigue the triceps in a bench press than it will force to chest to do more work. There is a giant hole in that theory.

Lets say you bench press 200 lbs for 10 reps. If your triceps are the weak link the theory is to fatigue them to do more work for the chest. Well the chest is already not getting worked enough with 200 lbs. So now you fatigue the triceps so you have to further lower the weight you use. Lets say now its 160 lbs. The triceps are still limiting load so they will still be the main factor. The chest is now exposed to less weight than it was before you prefatigued the triceps.

A better option would be to fatigue the chest before the bench so it now becomes the limiting factor. This still limits the load that can be used so its not that effective. It makes more sense to use a higher load on the bench press and then perform exercises for the weak points after you finish bench pressing. This way you don't limit load and you still get enough recruitment and muscle breakdown of the target muscle.


Danny

[cward76]

Originally posted by austintwo:
Ian King uses "pre-fatiguing" techniques in his Limping Legs and Super Strength routines (which I've done) and probably in others as well, but specifically cautions against using these routines more than once annually (they are 12-wk routines).

I'm not sure if "pre-fatigue" is different than what you read citing "pre-exhaust".

Hope this helps.

Pete

Some of the routines in the Book of Muscle are setup to where you work the smaller muscle groups first. This is done in the early stages of the intermediate program. It is only for a short time peroid and I think the idea is to fix weak link muscle groups.