I have seen them done both ways. I cannot get myself to drop into a squat position when I do them either. The only reason I can think of for this is that you must have to use a much heavier weight than you think you can handle in order to drop into the squat position when doing cleans. I do them the way it sounds like you are doing them and my traps burn for days afterward.
Maybe I am off base on the weight thing but I don't know how else you would drop into a squat position when doing them.
The difference between a clean and a hang clean is the start position (off the floor versus from the hang).
The difference between a clean and a POWER clean is the catch position - the clean is in a full squat - the power clean is a half or a quarter squat.
For most of my athletes I prescribe to the "pull high - catch high" philosophy that has them try to catch in a quarter squat.
Eventually if it's really heavy - you'll do a full squat anyway (you've no choice!), but don't get into the habit of dropping into a full squat if you don't have to.
Alwyn covered most of it. Its just a matter of you learning how to perform the lift before you get to heavy weights. Frankly, I didnt learn the actual catch until I had the pull ironed out.
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Like I said, I only got some initial instruction from the strength coach and I know he will help me later so I didn't know if he simply was holding off on that part until later or had no intention of teaching me to do it with the squat part. Guess I'll find out next time. This was my first shot at it and I'm still going light and focusing on form. My "plan" is to keep working on the basics until I can maintain good form without thinking about it much.
I do hang cleans twice a week. I love them. I catch the bar in about a quarter squat. They kill the traps and my sternum also takes a beating when the weight gets heavy unfortunately.
Originally posted by tyler: So Alwyn, even if you can catch the bar in a low squat, don't do it?
I always thought the O-lifters that put up the big weights barely even move the bar and sort of dip under it, catching it in a DEEP squat.
That's because it's TOO HEAVY to pull high, or catch in a higher squat. In other words - they have to.
I think that for sports - you should pull and catch the bar as high as possible.
Catching low tends to create very bad habits. I would guess that over 90% of the time when a person is doing these clean or squat cleans, they are not getting a full pull (triple extension). This full pull is essentially the whole reason we do the lift so I make sure that our athletes "pull high - catch high" every single time. here is a photo sequence of a 6'8 basketball player doing a power clean ( i think around 115 kgs). Not the greatest pull as you can see elbows bending too soon ("when the elbows bend, the power ends") but it's a helluva long pull on this big guy anyway!
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Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
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Director of Speed, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Canyons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
Ok, so if you pull high and catch high you are limiting involvement of your legs as much as possible right?
Actually, by lengthening the pull you do more work and get the knees and hips to forcefully extend. When catching in the 'hole' you decrease the actual work that is performed in the actual pull (also less power being generated). While you end-up doing a full front squat with the 'clean', just about every athlete that I have can front squat more than they can clean so getting out of the hole from a deep catch is not all that much work for most of them.
In terms of pinpointing the top 3 muscle groups, it is hard. Obviously we are looking to get triple extension so hopefully we are getting great force created at the ankle, knee and hip.
I think it is hard to think of many muscle groups that are not affected during the 'pulling 'Oly lifts. Can't forget the low back, traps etc.
__________________
Robert dos Remedios, MA, CSCS,
HCC (Hartman-Cosgrove Certified)
Director of Speed, Strength & Conditioning
College of the Canyons, CA http://www.canyons.edu/departments/pe/strength
"NO CHAMPION HAS EVER ACHIEVED HIS OR HER GOAL WITHOUT SHOWING MORE DEDICATION THAN THE NEXT PERSON; MAKING MORE SACRIFICES THAN THE NEXT PERSON; WORKING HARDER, TRAINING, AND CONDITIONING HIM / HERSELF MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON; ENJOYING HIS / HER FINAL GOAL MORE THAN THE NEXT PERSON"
While on the topic of cleans and oly-lifts in general: Are the olympic lifts something I can learn myself, or do I have to consult a trainer/strength coach before attempting them?
I would really like to add hang-cleans, hang-jerks, and push presses to my routine, but I'm not sure if I should attempt them without a pro watching me. Also, where would I be able to find a qualified trainer (something not all too common in gyms today, unfortunately)?
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To rephrase what dos has said, it takes more power to accelerate the weight so that it travels to a height to catch it 'high' versus the height to catch it low.
As weight goes up, your power output will go down and you will eventually not be able to get the bar as high. Thus the low catch.
Plus, the full lifts are quite technical while the power verions from the hang are not -- with respect to the 'extra' stuff you need to do besides the triple extension.
Quote:
Originally posted by jpete23: Ok, so if you pull high and catch high you are limiting involvement of your legs as much as possible right?
What would any of you guys say the top three muscle groups worked are in this exercise (in order)
Originally posted by sharkbait31: While on the topic of cleans and oly-lifts in general: Are the olympic lifts something I can learn myself, or do I have to consult a trainer/strength coach before attempting them?
I would really like to add hang-cleans, hang-jerks, and push presses to my routine, but I'm not sure if I should attempt them without a pro watching me. Also, where would I be able to find a qualified trainer (something not all too common in gyms today, unfortunately)?
Id find somebody. There are two routes (that I know of) you can take: you can go to www.nsca.com and look for a trainer in your area. You can ask them if theyre certified to teach o-lifting, I think this is what Joshman did.
You can also go to www.usaweightlifing.org and find a coach or training facility in your area.
__________________
"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
There are other feds out there too such as the International Weightlifting Fed (or Assoc) and American Weightlifting Assoc so check those too and see whos near you.
__________________
"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
What is keeping you from getting in the right position? How wide a grip are you using? If you load up a real heavy bar on the squat rack, can you push yourself into the correct position? We probably need to see a picture of what you can do to be able to help much.
The way you catch depends on many things namely flexability....Ideally yoru elbows should be high on the catch, bar shoudl be pinned kinda against, just under the collar bone area. Doing front squats will help in the wrist flexability.
Arm length and size play a role too...thicker the biceps, higher up your elbows will have to be and more flexable the wrists. I have alot of trouble with the catch myself cause of my arm size.
Hang clean is actually a builder for the powerclean, since its up half way one has to get a faster starting speed.
Any clean should be caught as low as possible IMO, point of it is to build speed and power.
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Originally posted by MarineWithEgo: I am bumping this old topic to see if anyone can give me suggestions on keeping my elbows out and in the correct position.
From what I have read, it's pretty important to keep them out, yet I can't seem to accomplish it. I look like the picture of how they shouldn't look.
Use the rack position as a stretch exercise to get used to the wrist position. Before each set do this stretch. Move into the stretch position and perform a contract/relax stretch with a 10 second contraction and a 10 sec stretch. The get under the weighted bar and hold in the rack position to your tolerance. Keep driving the elbows upward.
Thanks for the pointers guys. As for my front squats, I also have a problem with my hold. It hurts the hell out of my wrist and forearms, so I am sure that this will help both.
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