I'm trying to improve my deadlift for my goal of hitting 405lbs. by January. My new 1RM as 10/17 of is 385lbs. I'm somewhat limited in my equipment. I don't have a rack for rack pulls. I don't have a glute/ham raise, back extension, etc. I do have access to a cable column for pull throughs.
So, far I've been doing sets of three. I usually do 4x3 at a weight and move up to 8x3 at that weight over a couple of sessions. Then I add a few pounds and start again. So, I've done 8x3 at 345lbs. and 4x3 at 355. I'll be working 355 until I get 8x3. Then I'll go up to 360 or 365lbs. I'm deadlifting about twice per week.
What else can I do, or should I do to hit that number. I'm not worried about hitting it. I feel very confident that I'll be able to get above 400lbs. by new years. But, what do you think would be some other things that I can do to improve my deads?
I see that alot of programs do assistance work; glute/hams, good mornings, etc. Is this neccesary? Should I do more swings, pull throughs, etc? Should I do Romanian Deadlifts, Single Leg Deadlifts, some pulls from a deficit (not sure how I'd do that but I'll figure something out)? Should I not deadlift two (sometimes three) times per week?
I'm also doing front squats, power cleans, pull ups, rows, etc.
I would not deadlift that frequently. I would also not use the current rep scheme you are for a strength goal.
The way you are working is a fantastic way to build volume and work capacity, but not fantastic for max strength.
I would do one max strength day and one accessory day.
Max Strength - Jim Wendlers 5/3/1 would be perfect here. Just about anything that prioritizes weight on the bar will work. So weekly max effort type work. The goal is to lift more weight each week. After your max set I would then do 2 or 3 sets of 3-5 reps similar to what you are doing now to get some more volume in.
I would finish with something type of single leg knee dominant exercise, some ab work and some high rep hip dom stuff like pullthroughs.
Later in the week I would then hit a Front squat, some Romanian Deadlifts or Good Mornings, and a bit more lower work. This should be a bit higher rep range (5-8 ish reps) stuff.
This is what I would do if I were you. It does sound like what you are doing now has been working well, so keep that in mind.
Danny
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Limitations are for people who have them.
Even without the calculator, my lifts are pretty decent. I've heard some criticism of this program about using a one rep max calc based on Wendler's formula. We all know calcs are not single lifts, but it's a basic tool to track progress. If that's what is keeping you away from the progam, don't do the calcs, just do the work. Take the calc line out of the last 200 days of my workouts and it's still a record of progress.
__________________ In Fitness & Friendship, MAHLER
______________________________ __________________________ There is no light at the end of the tunnel. You carry the light with you.
I was able to hit 405 fairly easily, and I don't actually remember how I did it, but I imagine that my road to 495 was similar to your road to 405. 5-3-1 worked well for me, but if I were to generalize, two methods worked well for me during this process:
1. Multiple heavy singles or doubles
2. A single heavy set of multiple (i.e. ~5) reps
I'm not sure how much multiple sets are moderate reps with a somewhat heavy weight will help, but your mileage may vary. Besides, if you think there's something wrong with what you're doing, a little change can't hurt too much.
Oh, and I probably wouldn't deadlift more than twice a week since deadlifts are pretty taxing, especially if you take my/DKing's suggestions and start going heavier with lower sets and reps.
I'm a little ambivalent on assistance work. I squat (not much, unfortunately), and do deadilft variants (deficit deadlifts, rack pulls), but for the longest time, I just deadlifted, and that seemed to work fine.
If that's what is keeping you away from the progam, don't do the calcs, just do the work. Take the calc line out of the last 200 days of my workouts and it's still a record of progress.
No, it was just a joke. It wasn't a serious objection.
When I asked this question I was just thinking about some exercise substitution, additional assistance work, or even lessening the volume, etc. I wasn't prepared for a wholesale program change. Then I had to ask why I asked the question if I didn't want program reccommendations? So, I felt bad about asking.
I hate to make wholesale changes when I'm experiencing good results from what I'm doing. I'm hitting PR's all the time. So, I'm reluctant to completely change what I'm doing. But, I am going to take a look at 5/3/1 and see how it varies from what I'm doing now. I've had a comment or two in my log about the volume and intensity of deadlifts in my routine. Perhaps I do need to consider making a program change? I'm not getting alot of good feedback about the high volume of triples, even though the triples are at about 90% of my 1RM.
My question was more about whether doing more hamstring specific/isolation work would be beneficial. And how to do that without hamstring specific equipment. And if I should sub some RDL's, instead of pulling from the floor so often.
lower rep ranges and more weight on the bar. Like Danny said, what you're doing now is good for muscular endurance, and it will have SOME carryover to your 1rm, but not as good as multiple sets of heavier reps.
One good thing though, is if you're used to that high volume, you should see some good progress after a few weeks of lower reps. I second 5/3/1 or something similar in lower rep periodization.
All my stuff i do to bring up my deadlift right now from where it was before (post hip injury) are: box squats, single leg work like split squats or lunge variations, glute ham raises, front squats, and strongman events (yoke, farmers, tire flips).
You CAN throw in some things like RDLs, but honestly, if you just alter your rep range, you shouldn't have a problem pulling 405.
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lower rep ranges and more weight on the bar. Like Danny said, what you're doing now is good for muscular endurance, and it will have SOME carryover to your 1rm, but not as good as multiple sets of heavier reps.
I'm confused about why you would say that what I'm doing is going to improve endurance more than strength? Is it because of the number of sets? Because I'm only doing three reps per set. And I have at least 3 minutes rest between sets...though often longer, especially when doing something like 8x3.
I'm confused about why you would say that what I'm doing is going to improve endurance more than strength? Is it because of the number of sets? Because I'm only doing three reps per set. And I have at least 3 minutes rest between sets...though often longer, especially when doing something like 8x3.
ah, i misread it and thought you said 3x8.
In any case, that is a lot of volume to do for pulls, and cutting it back and upping the weight, you'll still see progress. My favorite rep range for pulls was always 3x3 or lower.
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In any case, that is a lot of volume to do for pulls, and cutting it back and upping the weight, you'll still see progress. My favorite rep range for pulls was always 3x3 or lower.
Wow! Only 9 reps. Were you doing other types of hip/back assistance work? How often on deads and assistance?
9 total reps would be on the high side for a heavy deadlift workout for me. I think something like 3x3 or 3x5 could work very well for you.
As far as assistance work, the greatest benefit for deadlifts are things like:
- Deadlifts standing off boxes
- Rack Pulls
- Opposite stance pulls (Pull sumo if you usually pull conventional)
9 total reps would be on the high side for a heavy deadlift workout for me. I think something like 3x3 or 3x5 could work very well for you.
As far as assistance work, the greatest benefit for deadlifts are things like:
- Deadlifts standing off boxes
- Rack Pulls
- Opposite stance pulls (Pull sumo if you usually pull conventional)
OK, how often would you do something like that? Would you pull conventional once per week and assistance work on another day? Or would you do something like 3x3 for conventional deads and follow it up with a few sets of rack pulls? I'm sure that you're not pulling deads as often as I am, but I'm still a noob! So, I'm not accumulating the same fatigue while lifting in the mid threes.
OK, how often would you do something like that? Would you pull conventional once per week and assistance work on another day? Or would you do something like 3x3 for conventional deads and follow it up with a few sets of rack pulls? I'm sure that you're not pulling deads as often as I am, but I'm still a noob! So, I'm not accumulating the same fatigue while lifting in the mid threes.
why don't you just do 5/3/1? Just follow it up with some single leg and other stuff? I do this, and pull once a week. Works good.
You're thinking about this stuff way too much. If you lift heavy weights, you're not going to be able to lift them for multiple reps. So, just go lower reps, lower sets, throw in some assistance stuff, and you're good.
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No, it was just a joke. It wasn't a serious objection.
When I asked this question I was just thinking about some exercise substitution, additional assistance work, or even lessening the volume, etc. I wasn't prepared for a wholesale program change. Then I had to ask why I asked the question if I didn't want program reccommendations? So, I felt bad about asking.
I hate to make wholesale changes when I'm experiencing good results from what I'm doing. I'm hitting PR's all the time. So, I'm reluctant to completely change what I'm doing. But, I am going to take a look at 5/3/1 and see how it varies from what I'm doing now. I've had a comment or two in my log about the volume and intensity of deadlifts in my routine. Perhaps I do need to consider making a program change? I'm not getting alot of good feedback about the high volume of triples, even though the triples are at about 90% of my 1RM.
My question was more about whether doing more hamstring specific/isolation work would be beneficial. And how to do that without hamstring specific equipment. And if I should sub some RDL's, instead of pulling from the floor so often.
Keep in mind, if what you are doing is working, then you probably don't need to change.
But... It comes down to goals. If the goal becomes max strength, or even just strength as the focus, then you probably don't want to do the extreme volume of pulling that you are doing.
A person shouldn't be able to use 90% 1 rm for 8 sets of 3. If you can, its a sign that your max is artificially lower than it should be. By that I mean that it could be a lot higher if either, you were recovered enough before your next max pull, you worked out any form issues at those higher weights, or you spent some time focusing on improving that max weight rather than hitting a lot of sets. Which reason it is will just depend on the individual.
So priority number one is decide on goals. If the goal is max strength than what you are doing isn't really ideal and you aren't going to gain strength at the rate you could with another program. If you goals are more hypertrophy/fitness oriented, than what you are doing will probably work great and you should keep going until you stop seeing gains.
Danny
__________________
Limitations are for people who have them.
Blame Matt Perryman. But, seriously I'm aware of that. I've been on an illness induced deload and I've had too much time on my hands to think about this stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcoholiday
why don't you just do 5/3/1?
Well, right now I don't really know anything about it. I'm looking into it to see if that something that I want to, or can do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKing
Keep in mind, if what you are doing is working, then you probably don't need to change.
Which is why I haven't made any changes. But....
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKing
A person shouldn't be able to use 90% 1 rm for 8 sets of 3. If you can, its a sign that your max is artificially lower than it should be.
I've been wondering the exact same thing. Why can I do sets of 3 with 355lbs. when 385 is my max? That doesn't seem right.
I'll look into 5/3/1 or at the very least incorporate more singles and doubles at a higher percentage.
Thanks everyone for your help. I pulled 405lbs. tonight!
I've been reading up on 5/3/1 and it does seem like something that I'd like to do. But, I have equipment issues that make it impossible for me to follow it verbatim (no rack) so I need to figure out how I could make that happen.
I am sure you could follow the deadlift portion of 5/3/1 though.
Deadlift is one movement where reps no not necessarily equate to a 1rm very well. I am not sure why, but ive seen this quite a few times.
It doesn't really matter how you set it up, you can pull on one day and do accessory on another or do both on the same day. People have had success with both, just find what you like and what works.
Thanks everyone for your help. I pulled 405lbs. tonight!
I've been reading up on 5/3/1 and it does seem like something that I'd like to do. But, I have equipment issues that make it impossible for me to follow it verbatim (no rack) so I need to figure out how I could make that happen.
You can use risers or boxes to get a higher starting position.
Deadlift is one movement where reps no not necessarily equate to a 1rm very well. I am not sure why, but ive seen this quite a few times.
I have wondered about this. Could it be that the deadlift is the one major lift where the first thing you have to do is to overcome the inertia of the weight? The other major lifts require you to actually handle and in some way feel the weight before actually moving it.
__________________ In Fitness & Friendship, MAHLER
______________________________ __________________________ There is no light at the end of the tunnel. You carry the light with you.
I have wondered about this. Could it be that the deadlift is the one major lift where the first thing you have to do is to overcome the inertia of the weight? The other major lifts require you to actually handle and in some way feel the weight before actually moving it.
Thanks. Everything I do is from a dead stop. Perhaps this lack of equipment will actually benefit me in some way?!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Dog
You can use risers or boxes to get a higher starting position.
Congrats on the 405!
Thanks. I'm not sure that I understand what you mean about risers, though? I'd thought about getting some to do deficit deadlifts, but I'm not sure how that would help in my squat. Although the "bars" are just below parallel so perhaps I could get some more depth if I stepped onto a riser?
Thanks. I'm not sure that I understand what you mean about risers, though? I'd thought about getting some to do deficit deadlifts, but I'm not sure how that would help in my squat. Although the "bars" are just below parallel so perhaps I could get some more depth if I stepped onto a riser?
You said you have no rack. I assumed you meant for rack pulls. With rack pulls you are starting with the barbells above floor level. Instead of elevating the weight on a rack, you can elevate them on risers or boxes.
You said you have no rack. I assumed you meant for rack pulls. With rack pulls you are starting with the barbells above floor level. Instead of elevating the weight on a rack, you can elevate them on risers or boxes.
Oh, that makes much more sense!
I had meant that squats would be an issue. It's hard for me to perform a single on squats without a rack. But, the point about rack pulls in a good one. I need to make a trip to home depot!
Deadlifting, and some upper back work is pretty much all that is needed for deadlifts. I've built my deadlift up to 555 by doing mostly 3-4 sets of 6, and tapering down 3x per year for competitions. I've never really done more volume than 4x6 in the last two years.
Deadlifting, and some upper back work is pretty much all that is needed for deadlifts. I've built my deadlift up to 555 by doing mostly 3-4 sets of 6, and tapering down 3x per year for competitions. I've never really done more volume than 4x6 in the last two years.
Does protein synthesis work differently down there? I know that the toilets do? Just asking....
Trying to improve deads....do more deads?
Big congrats. 4 big ones on each side. 
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