Indoor rowing (Concept 2) chat thread

[Espi]

Being as OCD who I am & having taken up indoor rowing again, I can't help but compare my times/Watts with previous efforts.

Outside Willie here, who happens to row outside, I don't know others who row indoors.
It'd be nice to compare efforts.. not really for a competition but as a motivation.

Just stumbled on someone else's thread & he mentioned rowing 5000m. Man.. I'm now alternating between 500m & 2000m for workouts & nearly each & every time I'm dying between 1000-1500m when my intentions to do a 'steady technical training' goes out of the window & I start off w a too high intensity.
Can't imagine how 5000m feels like.. another reason why I don't plan on doing 5000m stretches is that I'm always doing it at the end of an already too long workout (mostly 90mins).

But.. anyways.. please rowers, come out of the woodwork & start giving your times.

To start off..

For today I had my very first Fish Game & scored 720 points and rowed 756 meters. Apparently 1 game lasts for 4 minutes = 2:38/500m.

Prior to that I've done a 500m stretch .. wasn't planning for a fast time but tried to focus on breathing technique. Couldn't decide whether I needed to breath in when sliding forwards or breath out.
Figured I'd need to inhale during the faster backwards slide & exhale during the slower forwards slide.. the reason I started wondering about breathing is that I keep forgetting to go forwards slower than pulling backwards.
Numbers for those: 500m @ 2:24,1 - 117W - 33 strokes/min.. not fast but good enough for when I am too busy figuring out when to breathe

[Ogedei]

I have an indoor rower, but it is not a concept 2, I am not elite. I got is second hand, I was impatient and after a month trying to get a concept 2 I abandoned it and got this one.

I don't row very much. Not sure when I should. Maybe on the weekends?

I obviously can't compared watts and such. I can post distances times and speeds if I ever start again.

I was thinking of doing it as an interval type workout. Maybe with my new found love of Audio tracks for working out I can come up with something to get me back "in the water"

[Willie]

Originally Posted by Espi

Being as OCD who I am & having taken up indoor rowing again, I can't help but compare my times/Watts with previous efforts.

Espi, when I was rowing indoors a lot, and trying NOT to compete (hard, when my teammates are erging next to me), I wear my HR monitor and let that be my guide. It will actually give you a HR on the erg screen, so you don't have to look at your wrist (alternately, I attach the watch to the erg handle). Sometimes, when I found myself really needing to stretch and not row hard, I would just flip the screen around so I couldn't even see it.

Originally Posted by Espi

Outside Willie here, who happens to row outside, I don't know others who row indoors.

Yes, but when that outdoor rowing happens in Boston, Spokane, and Seattle, one does a LOT of indoor rowing, too

Originally Posted by Espi

Just stumbled on someone else's thread & he mentioned rowing 5000m. Man.. I'm now alternating between 500m & 2000m for workouts & nearly each & every time I'm dying between 1000-1500m when my intentions to do a 'steady technical training' goes out of the window & I start off w a too high intensity.
Can't imagine how 5000m feels like.. another reason why I don't plan on doing 5000m stretches is that I'm always doing it at the end of an already too long workout (mostly 90mins).

Most competitive rowers test at 2k and 5k. For my age group (not sure how old you are), the fastest splits you'll see for those distances are 1:49 and 1:54ish, respectively. Last time I tested, before I hurt my back, I went 1:47.9 for 2k and 1:53 for 5k... this was three years ago.

Most rowers, when doing a piece (this is what we call a pre-set distance or time, so, like, "I'm doing 4 500m pieces today with 2' rest), will choose either a specified stroke rate or a specified split. For me, when I'm testing a 2k, I hit 1:47 after the first 10 strokes, and do not let it move more than 2 splits +/- on any given stroke. Stroke rate is usually 28-30.

So, you might try limiting your stroke rate when you are going for distance. Many rowers will train with rates between 18 and 24. Go for a ratio of 3 beats on the "recovery" (going towards the wheel) to 1 beat on the drive (pushing)

More later...

Originally Posted by Espi

For today I had my very first Fish Game & scored 720 points and rowed 756 meters. Apparently 1 game lasts for 4 minutes = 2:38/500m.

Prior to that I've done a 500m stretch .. wasn't planning for a fast time but tried to focus on breathing technique. Couldn't decide whether I needed to breath in when sliding forwards or breath out.
Figured I'd need to inhale during the faster backwards slide & exhale during the slower forwards slide.. the reason I started wondering about breathing is that I keep forgetting to go forwards slower than pulling backwards.
Numbers for those: 500m @ 2:24,1 - 117W - 33 strokes/min.. not fast but good enough for when I am too busy figuring out when to breathe

[Espi]

Hah! Thanks..

Ogedei, I don't know how popular rowing is in the USA, compared to Europe.. I'd actually not really know for sure how the NLs compares to other countries. But with a lot of water around, there's lots of opportunity to row outside. I've been a member of a club very briefly, but chickened out after too many close calls with large freight ships: the closest opportunity to row is the very busy & quite polluted Rhine river.

Since then, I've only rowed indoor and that only for a limited time in 2006-2007 and now after a break of almost 2 years again since about 1 month, as it's more exciting than treadmill work, plus my weightlifting shoes are too slippery for the TM & I can't be bothered to bring 2 pair of shoes.

The gym trainer who showed me how to look up the drag factor (knowing how OCD I am ), said most competitive rowers set the damper at around 2, but I forgot how this translates. When I looked today it showed a factor of 90. When testing what 10 translated to, it was 215.
He also showed me it is possible to row at a setting of 2, get a pace of 20-ish and still get very good split times.. I looked green with envy.

My pace used to be slower (mostly 29ish) but since I've abbreviated the ROM of each stroke, it has gone way over 30.. when I try to pay attention it's mostly 32-33.

[Willie]

Most women test at a factor of 115-118 (though, in international competition, you can set it wherever you want it; it just can't be changed mid-race).

Ogedai, where are you located? If you're interested in rowing, I can possibly point you in the direction of a local club.

[fengshway]

we have an indoor rower at our house. concept 2. my husband trains on it and loves it!

back in may, I rowed a nice, steady, comfortable 5000 meter continuous piece and did 23:32 which is 2:21 per 500m --this was my first time back on an erg since I learned to row 4 years ago. I can do around 2-2:05 for a 500 right now on no training.

once I put the boston (running) dream to rest, I really do want to train for and go to the indoor world rowing championchips in boston! training for that will be fun. I also want to get back in the water, but my schedule prevents that right now.

[Espi]

Since starting to row again 6 weeks ago, the best 500m was 2:12. So that's way less than you do.. but it's always when done with my regular long workout.
Am now planning to do 2000m every other workout.. sofar I'm at 10:00 as a best time (2:30/500m), but like I said am dying at the 1000-1500m stretch. Probably the drag factor setting of 2 is too low for longer distances?

BTW, am 46 years young

[fengshway]

I think I set the damper at 4. I am 45 years old. probably my conditioning from running is translating to rowing.

but there is something about muscle endurance that I just have. at running camp, we did an erg exercise as part of a cardio circuit. I loved beating most of the fit men on the erg and all of the women!! I forget what I did then, something right at 2 flat or maybe slightly less than that for the 500m on no training and after a hard day of running camp. the coach said a good time for the men would be 2 flat and for the women 2:30. I think I am in the wrong sport, lol!

[LisaS]

Originally Posted by fengshway

but there is something about muscle endurance that I just have. [snip]
the coach said a good time for the men would be 2 flat and for the women 2:30. I think I am in the wrong sport, lol!

I'm thinking you crossed-over to rowing better than the other runners at camp because you've been diligent about doing things other than just running - running specificity vs. generalized fitness so that a different movement pattern didn't mean that your muscles were totally shocked.

[fengshway]

I think that is a very strong possibility lisa, I had been swimming and lifting consistently. most runners really just run. seriously.

(big sigh) I miss rowing. I really do. particularly sculling (two oars, single shell).

[LisaS]

I know they've found differences in the lab with VO2 Max testing of individuals if they test runners on treadmill vs. erg cycle and also cyclists on erg cycle vs. treadmill. There seems to be demand (sport) driven specificity for at least some of the components that contribute to VO2 max.

[Fang]

Hm. I guess I should pay attention to what I'm doing next time I row at the gym. Plus, I've been putting the damper on 9, assuming a damper is the resistance thingie.

[Espi]

That was one of the biggest revelations : was always thinking setting it to 10 made it harder to row & while the resistance is biggest then, I was told this is what beginners do.
The guy told me advanced rowers put the damper on 2-3 as it's harder to row well at a low resistance. Since then I've put it on 2 (translates to around 90 when you look up the drag factor).

But that is too low for me to row well for longer distances.. at the moment pace picks up too much & HR goes into the anaerobic zone.

[Willie]

Originally Posted by Espi

That was one of the biggest revelations : was always thinking setting it to 10 made it harder to row & while the resistance is biggest then, I was told this is what beginners do.
The guy told me advanced rowers put the damper on 2-3 as it's harder to row well at a low resistance. Since then I've put it on 2 (translates to around 90 when you look up the drag factor).

But that is too low for me to row well for longer distances.. at the moment pace picks up too much & HR goes into the anaerobic zone.

So, technically, the drag factor is really only an issue when related to the number of strokes you are taking per minute.

So, the lighter the drag factor, the higher number of strokes you'll need to take to keep a certain split (less drag means the wheel doesn't slow down as much between strokes and is lighter at the beginning of each stroke, so you need to take more, quicker strokes because you get less bang for your proverbial buck).

Lightweight rowers prefer a lower drag setting because they have less muscle mass but, theoretically, more efficiency to take more strokes. Lwts always race at a higher cadence than open weights.

A heavier drag factor means that more strength is required to get -- and keep-- the wheel moving. The wheel also slows down more between strokes, so the overall load is heavier. When you row at a lower drag factor, you take fewer strokes in a minute, but you get more bang for your buck... if you are strong enough.

Openweight women test at a factor of 115 because this best replicates the drag they would find in the water (surface area + boat and rigging weight + athlete weight + coxswain weight).

It is harder to row technically proficiently at a lower drag setting, because your muscles don't feel the load as well. Remember when you learned how to deadlift or power clean with a dowel? It was much easier, actually, to do it well, when you added some weight.

Edited to add: The internationally accepted weight for lightweight women is either 125lbs or 130 lbs, depending on the racing season. For men, it is either 155 or 160.

Most internationally competitive open weight women weigh more like 160-185.

[Willie]

Originally Posted by Fang

Hm. I guess I should pay attention to what I'm doing next time I row at the gym. Plus, I've been putting the damper on 9, assuming a damper is the resistance thingie.

It is the resistance thingy, but it's also the easiest way to hurt yourself! Rowing is pretty demanding of your lower back. The heavier the load, the more skilled you need to be at guarding your back. Lighten your load, and you'll have an easier time. On most new ergs, the damper for openweight women is between 4 and 5. If the erg is older, you'll need to check the actual drag factor, which requires pressing a few buttons (I believe, it's start and 500m/ at the same time, but I can't remember. I'm sure I could do it in my sleep, if I was sitting on the erg!).

[Fang]

Well, I have never had any soreness issues at all after rowing, with it set super high like that. And I've done it a lot, so I think I would have hurt myself if it was going to happen. I was extremely careful to look at a lot of videos and to get my form down. I was just trying to get a good workout--I do intervals of 30-60 secs, with x2 as a rest. Is there any reason NOT to have the damper so high? I guess I can see if I can figure out the actual drag factor.

[fengshway]

kate, so cool to have such an experienced rower on the boards!! I might seriously get back into it as a crosstraining method regardless of what happens at my marathon later this month.

[Willie]

Originally Posted by Fang

Well, I have never had any soreness issues at all after rowing, with it set super high like that. And I've done it a lot, so I think I would have hurt myself if it was going to happen. I was extremely careful to look at a lot of videos and to get my form down. I was just trying to get a good workout--I do intervals of 30-60 secs, with x2 as a rest. Is there any reason NOT to have the damper so high? I guess I can see if I can figure out the actual drag factor.

No, as long as you've not hurt yourself, there's no reason to change. I cringe when I see some folks using the erg at the gym, and wonder how they can walk afterward. This, of course, after rowing for years and then blowing 2 discs while deadlifting...

I'd like it lower simply because the more strokes I take, the higher my HR. So for intervals, I'd think that a lower resistance would net you more cardiovascular efficiency. But really, how old, and how well care-for is the erg at your gym? If it's a few years old and hasn't been oiled properly, your damper at 9 might not be much heavier then where I would normally set it.

[Willie]

Originally Posted by fengshway

kate, so cool to have such an experienced rower on the boards!! I might seriously get back into it as a crosstraining method regardless of what happens at my marathon later this month.

Are you in Boston? What club did you row with?
I raced at C.R.A.S.H.B.'s for years (the indoor world championships). Nothing like the sound of 500 ergs in a gym. And eww... the smell... But, if you like looking at very athletic physical specimens in very tight spandex, there's no better place!

[fengshway]

hey kate, no I am in florida. boston is where I hope to be for patriots day (boston marathon) I learned to row at halifax rowing. also went to craftsbury to learn sculling--really really FUN!!

totally want to do crash b's at some point. I think I have also talked my husband into it too! even at our neophyte stage, we wouldn't be the slowest people there, I looked up the times!!! I guess anybody can row at the world's. there is a qualifying standard to go to crash b's free -- tough standard tho, I think in the 7's for my age group. with training I could probably meet it eventually.

I really want to get back on the water, but this damn career thing gets in the way of the best morning row times on the halifax.....

[Espi]

Such excitement in here

The concept 2 in my current gym is brand new .. or at least has only been acquired 2 months ago. I supposed it was new but the seat already has some problems sliding properly.

In the 2-3 years of using it in another gym, I've had it set lower for only the first few months & then set it to 10 & never adjusted downwards ever since as you indeed get most bang for the buck on that setting.
It was for a setting at 10 I got to 9:47 (my best 2000m sofar). Never had back pain from that setting either.

Interestingly, as a cyclist I was more a fast pedaller than a forceful one.

[AFI82]

Thanks for all the useful information everyone. I'm hoping to join the ranks of the indoor rowers soon. I'm currently just trolling Craigslist hoping for something to pop up.

[Willie]

Originally Posted by AFI82

Thanks for all the useful information everyone. I'm hoping to join the ranks of the indoor rowers soon. I'm currently just trolling Craigslist hoping for something to pop up.

Depending on where you are, you might be able to find a used machine from an indoor race. Concept II sponsors the races and then sells the machines-- that have been raced on maybe 20 times-- at a decent discount.

[Barrett]

Well I used to row for my college (IONA) till I transferred to SHU. We had many competitions such as 2ks and 5ks. One of my 2k times was at the NYAC St. Valentines day massacre which was 06:53.3. I also competed in the 500 m dash which I completed in 1:33:4.

[FlyinM]

Damn you! I have a Concept 2 model D in my home gym and haven't rowed in a few months. Now this thread has peaked my interest again. I'll have to go back and see what times I was doing on the memory card. I was doing intervals of 500m with 90 seconds rest. It'll be fun to see how pathetic my times really are now. And I hate that damn fish game!

[Espi]

MissDeadlift told me she's done a sub 1:40 (not surif it was 1:35 or 1:34 ?) for a 500m stretch on a club championship. As a true PL/OL-gal , she didn't care much for the longer distances.

[Miss Deadlift]

Originally Posted by Espi

MissDeadlift told me she's done a sub 1:40 (not surif it was 1:35 or 1:34 ?) for a 500m stretch on a club championship. As a true PL/OL-gal , she didn't care much for the longer distances.

actually, it was 1:36 but this was in 2007.
The last time I rowed hard again, it was 1:41 so will have to try harder next time

[Espi]

Dang you all make me look like a slow old girl.. got to work harder then.

MissDL told me I didn't need to worry about NOT riding all the way to the front and be afraid my knees would be in the way.. but actually this did happen to me.. my torso is probably too short or I'm keeping the line too low?

Trainer told me to not go forwards as much because it made me not pull in a straight line.. contrary to what happens in a boat where you actually have to put an oar (?) into the water, you can try to do things as efficiently as possible by keeping a straight line.. for me that means, not going forwards as much.

Since I've got stumpy short legs, I'm at the end of the rope too soon.. seems that I have to focus very much on the sequence
- push out with legs while keeping 'pull' on the line
- lean back
- pull with arms
Still too much of a noob to be aware of this.. and every time I plan to focus on technique my competitive drive gets the better of me at the end. Putting the display on Watts has been the better choice sofar = trying to keep all columns at the same nice & steady height. At least until 100m before the end.

[Espi]

Today's (Nov 5) 2000m
2000m - 112 aveW (100%max2000m) – 9:45,3 = 2:26,3 ave/500m – 111 kcal @ 31 strokes/min
Per hour: 12 301 m (100%max2000m) – 684 kcal

Put damper on 4 which translated to 115 .. it was easier now to keep breathing/HR under control which showed in more consistent split times : 2:25,8 – 2:29,9 – 2:27,7 – 2:21,9 with an avg pace of 31 strokes/min (30-30-31-33)

[FlyinM]

Got my ass kicked today by the Fish game (Still don't like it much). Best score was 1080 (2:09/500m, 929 meters). Next will be 2000m to see where I am now.