I'm interested in increasing my pullup preformance so I won't fail the test at school ( [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). From my experience I can tell that doing actual pullups works better than my regular back workouts (2 different grip lat pulldown exercises, underhand and overhand, rows, and 6 iso bicep sets)
I can do this at home and it will also allow me to concentrate on my legs more in the time I spend at the gym.
I also have a barbell at home so I can use that for isolated bicep work at the end.
Would you consider this a good idea?
Basically if I increase the number of pullups I can preform I will *FINALLY* be able to switch to weighted chins insead of the goddamn lat pulldowns.
Your thoughts?
__________________
Weight: 155lbs
Age: 18
Height: 5'9
Bodyfat: ~12%
Max squat: ?
Max deadlift: 225x5
Max bench: 115x5
Remember that if you're just doing pullups, you're probably neglecting some of the muscles in the upper part of your back. If you do the routine, I'd follow it up with a back program that heavily emphasises horizontal pulling motions (ie lots of rows). Otherwise, you might be setting yourself for muscle imbalances and posture problems. Good luck!
What if I just use it for a couple of weeks and then switch back to normal? that shouldn't get me to any muscular imbalances but can and will improve my chinup preformance drastically, wouldn't it?
__________________
Weight: 155lbs
Age: 18
Height: 5'9
Bodyfat: ~12%
Max squat: ?
Max deadlift: 225x5
Max bench: 115x5
Simon, can you do deadlifts? this will really thicken up your back, but if you are trying to improve your pull-ps like I stated above widegrip pulldowns I feel is your best bet, use you mind and picture the motion for a wide grip pulldown and then imagine the motion of doing a pullup, damn they are the same. I am not sure what you mean by muscle imbalance? Hope this helps
I'm about to start the Armstrong Pullup program - I want to improve the number of pullups I can do, and this is a specialization program for that purpose - the program claims it takes 4-5 weeks to take someone from 12-15 max set to a max set of 20 reps. I wouldn't stick with the program any longer than 4-5 weeks, though, no matter what, simply because any program seems to get stale at that point.
Pulldowns are a seemingly similar movement to pullups, but Craig, Lou and Mahler have all stated there are significant differences and the best way to improve pullups is to do pullups.
gettinhuge--what I mean by "muscle imbalances": A lot of guys treat the "upper back" as one muscle group, but different muscles of the back have different functions. The primary movers in pull-ups and pull-downs (the lats) serve to internally rotate the humerus, and the primary movers in rows (rhomboids, mid-traps, and other upper back muscles) serve to externally rotate the humerous. The take-home message is that overdeveloping the lats and pecs while neglecting the other upper-back muscles is often the cause of the hunched back, forward-slouched shoulder posture you see in the gym. This can lead to shoulder problems.
That said, Simon is probably right. If you do the pull-up program for just a few weeks and then go back to a more balanced routine, I doubt you'll have any negative effects.
I totally understand the multi muscle aspect of things, this is something I have had indepth conversations about on other threads, I do alot of compound movements mixed with iso movements in my workouts, with the same mental process you just expalined. Thanks for clearing that up
Originally posted by austintwo:
Pulldowns are a seemingly similar movement to pullups, but Craig, Lou and Mahler have all stated there are significant differences and the best way to improve pullups is to do pullups.
They are totally different.
Pull-up, simplisticly, your body moves about a fixed object, so it's closed chain.
Pull-down, your body remains stationary and the resistance move about your body, so it's open chain.
To your nervous system, the movements are inverted, which is why pull-downs are not a good strategy for increasing pull-up performance.
I disagree if you pull down with a wide grip you use the same muscle that you use when you do a pull up. think about it. If I put a wide grip on a pull up and contract my shoulder blades and do a wide grip on a pull down it is the same muscle, however pullups will use more bicep than a wide grip pull down.
quote:Originally posted by austintwo:
Pulldowns are a seemingly similar movement to pullups, but Craig, Lou and Mahler have all stated there are significant differences and the best way to improve pullups is to do pullups.
They are totally different.
Pull-up, simplisticly, your body moves about a fixed object, so it's closed chain.
Pull-down, your body remains stationary and the resistance move about your body, so it's open chain.
To your nervous system, the movements are inverted, which is why pull-downs are not a good strategy for increasing pull-up performance.
At least, that's my estimation of things...
-Sean [/quote]Please explain how the movement is inverted. I don't understand what you mean by that.
This is what I have seen. This info came from T-Nation... I agree pullups are better, but only becuase they active more motor units, not because it an inverted position. I think a blend of both is best. I have also never done pullups and felt it below the waist as the author describes and I have gone as far as doing 1-3 rep sets with a weight belt.
Q: Just why the heck are pull-ups superior to cable pulldowns?
A: The short answer? Because the biggest guys do them. The long answer? The pull-up forces you to train harder. Let's break it down.
The pull-up engages a greater number and higher threshold of motor units. This is due to the stabilizers firing to fixate the torso and keep it rigid and the relatively greater loads being placed on each muscle along the chain.
For example, it’s not uncommon to get serious DOMS (soreness) in the abs, glutes and hamstrings after eight sets of six reps of chins. With the pulldown, the lower and mid body is fixated by the machine and therefore those same muscles are inactive.
Additionally, many muscles along the chinning chain such as the abs, biceps, hamstrings and lower lat fibers are predominately fast twitch and respond best to the more intense effort that only the mighty pull-up can provide.
Let’s make one point clear. It’s only the "free," non-assisted pull-ups and chin-ups that are superior back developers. Assisted (machine) pull-ups are in many ways inferior to cable pulldowns. This is due to the potential for cheating on such devices. By flexing the hips, knees and or ankles on a pull-up machine, the trainee can create a significant plyometric effect. This leads to poor form and injury.
quote:Originally posted by austintwo:
Pulldowns are a seemingly similar movement to pullups, but Craig, Lou and Mahler have all stated there are significant differences and the best way to improve pullups is to do pullups.
They are totally different.
Pull-up, simplisticly, your body moves about a fixed object, so it's closed chain.
Pull-down, your body remains stationary and the resistance move about your body, so it's open chain.
To your nervous system, the movements are inverted, which is why pull-downs are not a good strategy for increasing pull-up performance.
At least, that's my estimation of things...
-Sean [/quote]Please explain how the movement is inverted. I don't understand what you mean by that.
Thanks. [/quote]Exactly what you said in your post.
When I say inverted, I don't mean it's push vs. pull, both are obviously pulling. What I'm trying to say, and will be woefully incapable of expressing, is that while the movements look similar, they are in fact very very different.
open vs. closed chain. This is a concept I am still trying to understand more in depth, but pull-up vs chins is a prime example. In one movement, your body move around a fixed implement, in another, the implement moves about your body, which is now in a fixed position, so the movement is inverted.
Your nervous system has to do radically different things to complete a pull-up, just as your QA describes, not the least of which is the fact that it is a higher intensity and less chance to cheat.
All the stuff that has to happen to maintain rigidity through your torso, etc goes out the window when your body is fixed in an apparatus as it is in a pull-down.
An example of this would be someone who could pull-down tremendous load, but still not be able to do a chin. My room mate in college was an example of this, he could complete 275 x 10 rep's on a pulldown yet could not perform a single chin.
Why is that? at a bodyweight of 205, he should have been able to rip off a dozen chins with ease.
The answer is becuase the skill and movement pattern are not the same.
100%. I did take it as a push vs. pull sense, but yes I see what you are saying.
My training partner is the same way. He can do pulldowns with my entire stack of weight on the high pulley for reps, yet only can do 2-5 pullups on a flat bar.
I guess I'm the opposite - I weigh about 195, but doubt I could do a pulldown with that weight. However, I believe I can do 12-14 pullups at bodyweight, and around 6 with an extra 25-lb plate.
Ok so basically pullups and chinups are superior to any machine? NewLift thanks a bunch for the Q&A post it really helped me understand things better and has answered the next question I was about to present... My probelm is after doing my 13 bodyweight pullups (god I'm so proud of myself, last year it was 3) and a minute's rest, I can BARELY squeeze out 5 and basically wanna die.
I can't do 3 sets of this and another 3 sets of chinups (weighted, I can do 18 ), I will fall apart and if I don't the volume would be low.
If the first set on pullups is 13, next one will be 5, 7 if I'm really psyched, and the final one probably 4-5 MAX. By that time I will barely be able to do the chinups or anything else for that matter. Is it ok to work at a lower volume until I can increase it? Actually when I think about it, with time the volume ain't gonna change, because after a max of 12 pullups I won't be able to do much in the next set with the weight I'm using.
Your thoughts? ;\
__________________
Weight: 155lbs
Age: 18
Height: 5'9
Bodyfat: ~12%
Max squat: ?
Max deadlift: 225x5
Max bench: 115x5
Originally posted by sean:
open vs. closed chain. This is a concept I am still trying to understand more in depth, but pull-up vs chins is a prime example. [/QB]
That is supposed to say pull-up vs pull down obviously, edit function is timed on this board(why?) so I can't edit my post...
By the way, I remember a thread about this program a while back, this link was posted: http://www.4mcd.usmc.mil/AOP/OSOHyat...%20Program.htm and then someone said it has a mistake in it and posted a link to the the fixed version? Does anyone have an idea of what I'm talking about?
__________________
Weight: 155lbs
Age: 18
Height: 5'9
Bodyfat: ~12%
Max squat: ?
Max deadlift: 225x5
Max bench: 115x5
:p 
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