I got an email on rethinking the squat from Nick Tumminello, Alwyn Cosgrave, Phil Davies, Latif Thomas, and I think 1 more that I am on the mailing list.
What are your opinions on this subject? I have not done back squats in a long time (sometimes 1 legged squats, but thats about it) because I have anterior pelvic tilt and I am trying to strengthen the posterior chain. My quads are very overactive right now.
I was planning on going back to back squats and/or front squats when my anterior pelvic tilt goes away and when the quads get loose, now I dont know if I should go back or not. Maybe front squats, but probably not back squats.
I for one get it. For improving performance and the cost/benefit thing, absolutely. This guy has trained a lot of athletes. When these guys speak I listen. By guys I mean all those coaches out there who are duking it out on the front lines.
Of course for those who just want big legs it's not an issue. They don't care about performance. It's this demographic that will probably be the most vocal in opposition.
The fact that his work is titled "Functional Strength Coach 3.0 - A Joint by Joint Approach to Training" will be overlooked.
Anyways, just my opinion.
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I was planning on going back to back squats and/or front squats when my anterior pelvic tilt goes away and when the quads get loose, now I dont know if I should go back or not. Maybe front squats, but probably not back squats.
I would definitely try the front squats. Over time they may teach your body to properly squat. I test myself periodically by using a dowel and doing overhead squats facing a wall with my toes to that wall. The improvements in hip flexibility over the past 6 months have been very good. I think it's because of the front squat. Or perhaps from doing that wall thing every training day as part of my prehab
I was planning on going back to back squats and/or front squats when my anterior pelvic tilt goes away and when the quads get loose, now I dont know if I should go back or not. Maybe front squats, but probably not back squats.
Front squats, if anything, but you should always ask the purpose of the exercise. You can get stronger a lot of ways. Does Mike Boyle's reasoning seem right to you?
A front squat, when learning to squat will have very little load, and probably won't be any issue. A back squat with 135lbs isn't much of an issue for some, either. It's the heavy loads that put things at risk.
Have you ever done a front squat, upped the weight, and felt the struggle to keep your whole core tight and vertical? If your lower back is weak, it's going to start a wobble and a struggle. Mike Boyle is saying that our lower backs, at a certain point, are always likely to be weak. or at least weaker than necessary to lift a particular load.
It's important to learn to squat (the motion), but in life we don't squat with a huge load. We can learn to squat with goblet squats, for instance. I'll continue to squat to encourage my flexibility and get to a certain point of squatting strength, but beyond that, I'll focus on single leg work.
If there are good reasons to back or front squat, then I'm for them. Powerlifters and Oly lifters, for instance.
"After all,that is what my training is for; to prepare me for what challenges I have to do in real life, not just to get me good at training, although that's fun too." - Mark Reifkind
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I'm new to lifting but is the lower back weakness a good reason not to squat? If its weak shouldn't we strengthen it? Seems like this is just good reason to do both conventional squatting and single leg work, which a good program already does?
Edit: I think I may have interpreted it wrong, is he maybe saying that for advanced athletes whose lower back is about as strong as its going to get with their season demands and whatnot, is better off doing single leg work because there is more potential to strengthen the larger leg muscles?
Last edited by oceankyle : 10-24-2009 at 09:15 AM.
The mud slinging has started over at BB dot com and other sites. Someone actually said that the didn't know WTF he was talking about. It's these clueless ones that will throw the most mud.
Who started this "the squat is dead" thing anyways? Did Michael Boyle actually say this on his DVD's? I can't imagine him saying something like that.
And thank you LostDog for that summary and your take on it. That's about what I got out of it.
I'm new to lifting but is the lower back weakness a good reason not to squat? If its weak shouldn't we strengthen it? Seems like this is just good reason to do both conventional squatting and single leg work, which a good program already does?
Your back strength needs to outpace your squatting. If your lower back is weak to the point of a back squat putting it in danger, then there are other ways to get it stronger before increasing the back squat.
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Originally Posted by tonester
The mud slinging has started over at BB dot com and other sites. Someone actually said that the didn't know WTF he was talking about. It's these clueless ones that will throw the most mud.
The same basic thing happened a few years back when he said to do front squats vs back squats.
"After all,that is what my training is for; to prepare me for what challenges I have to do in real life, not just to get me good at training, although that's fun too." - Mark Reifkind
for thematic elements, some sensuality, brief language and incidental smoking
The mud slinging has started over at BB dot com and other sites. Someone actually said that the didn't know WTF he was talking about. It's these clueless ones that will throw the most mud.
Who started this "the squat is dead" thing anyways? Did Michael Boyle actually say this on his DVD's? I can't imagine him saying something like that.
And thank you LostDog for that summary and your take on it. That's about what I got out of it.
I believe Mike did, himself by the title "The Death of the Conventional Squat." In what may have been a misguided attempt at sensationalism, he now has a shitload of people misinterpreting the thrust of his presentation. The marketing is obscuring the message. It happens. And frankly the message isn't all that new.
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Well, if his intent was to be provocative and get lots of people to chatter about it, he succeeded.
I think the smart folks will figure it out. Anyone who thinks that you can keep exactly the same opinion about a rapidly evolving field over 20 years just isn't being reasonable.
I for one laughed when I saw the title--I love a good provocateur.
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I understand his argument, but aren't there some benefits to loading the spine with a heavy weight? Doesn't this encourage bone density? And doesn't it have a better carryover to overall strength?
I'm a big fan of single leg squats. I had to do tons of them before I got my barbell at home. But, I'd think a well rounded program would feature both full squats (front or back) and single leg work,unless heavy bilateral squats are somehow contraindicated for the individual.
I'm pretty sure that I just heard Mark Rippetoe call Mike Boyle a pussy!
I wonder why he doesnt just keep the weight manageable and strengthen the lower back separately.
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ut oh. i'm gonna take squats out of my program now.
i'll take bench out too, b/c everyone knows everyone has shoulder/ rotator issues from benching.
Overhead pressing is out, because we all know that most people don't have the shoulder mobility to do this.
And deadlifts are out b/c i don't want to jack my back up.
I guess i'll just stick to bw lunges, planks and arm work from now on.
not to doubt that Boyle's smart and knows his shit. Everyone takes risks with their training. As long as people don't make retarded jumps in weight and have good form, i think the risk is minimized.
Most people have the retard gene though...
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I believe Mike did, himself by the title "The Death of the Conventional Squat." In what may have been a misguided attempt at sensationalism, he now has a shitload of people misinterpreting the thrust of his presentation. The marketing is obscuring the message. It happens. And frankly the message isn't all that new.
Exactly. He brought this on himself with his marketing.
And the evidence he offers in that video clip is a joke. He admits that it's possible that squat depth differences could account for the weight differences.
I like Mahler's take - unless you have a sport specific reason to only do single leg work, do both bilateral squats and single leg work. But as Mahler says, that's nothing new - and you can't charge a lot of money for that. Boyle seems to be building the hype to sell his revolutionary new exercise that heralds the death of the squat for athletes. :yawn:
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Originally Posted by oceankyle
I think it could be AWESOME to hear Rippetoe's take on this.
I submitted a thread yesterday in Rip's forum, so hopefully he'll post it, along with his take on the death of his beloved squat.
A majority of people that I do see do back squat don't get down low enough. They may get down half way (almost parell) but not all the way parell like they are supposed to.
If the lower back is weak, that means your deadlift is weak right? The deadlift works the low back a long with the posterior chain and hip extension. I could do back squats if I wanted to, but not until I get rid of anterior tilt and strengthen the posterior chain and my core.
I tried front squats before a few times, but I know I don't have the wrist flexibility (have to use the cross grip) and its hard to get the bar to where it needs to be so it wont be move and stay steady. When I perform front squats, I always feel like the bar is not in control. Thats like my main problem.
I liked Boyle's material but IMO this is just marketing. He says if you're not doing a certain exercise this year, you're part of what's wrong with the industry. Then next year, if you ARE doing that same exercise, then you're part of what's wrong with the industry. He says he's learning, but this flip-flopping drives his marketing.
What I like about the functional fitness paradigm is that it should be above all this nonsense. As long as you stick to training squat, lunge, push, pull, deadlift, twist, and run/walk then you'll be fine. But the gurus have to sell more DVDs and books so they're pulling the community this way and that with their extreme marketing.
I commented on this over on BR, and I'll say the same here
I think Boyle says a lot of good/interesting things, and he's worth listening to, but he's also very overrated in the online circles mainly due to the Circle Jerk Marketing Crew.
To me, he seems to be far too cautious with his prescriptions, and that's because he seems to rely excessively on orthodox physiotherapy guidelines. That's fine for rehabbing hurt people, but it's probably not optimal for healthy athletes.
On that note, I'm not gonna blast him for this (beyond my usual commentary on the ridiculous marketing bullshit, which goes without saying by this point). Like anything else, take it or leave it; Boyle has his reasons for making his suggestions, and at least he's bothered to think out his reasoning.
I don't agree with it, in that I certainly wouldn't follow this strategy year round. As a counterpoint, I can also see the utility of dropping back squats and focusing on front squats and single-leg work at some parts of the year, or for some people that can't squat for whatever reason.
Once you wash it in your bullshit filter, it's not that bad. I mean it's way better than some of the shit Alwyn says, like aerobic making people fat or cancer violating thermodynamics. At least Boyle's got a reasonable case; just take it with a grain of salt.
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On a somewhat related topic: I wanted to know how much work is performed by the rear food in the Bulgarian squat. So I did a bodyweight Bulgarian squat and put a scale under my rear food: 20kg on the rear food (I weight 83kg). While holding a 22.5kg dumbbell in front of me it was about 25kg. So I'd say it's about 1/4 of the weight on the back leg at least for me.
Both measured at about 2/3 down.
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I still use single leg exercises but I could easily make the argument that all you need to do is squat and go home. As long as you are also, jumping, running and doing agility work at some point during the week, you may not need much more than that in the weight room.
I agree but as usual "it all depends". What season? What sport? Which athlete? At which point in his/her development?
The squat is not dead. Perhaps it's just sitting quietly in the toolbox waiting for the appropriate person
More from Valle regarding Boyle's stance changing:
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The current issue we see is information in the strength and conditioning industry is the early release of "advancements" of training that usually come back to a retraction of beliefs later. The most frustrating part of this problem is those following are always the victims of the gurus learning curve. Ironically, those not trying to stay up to date are often ahead of those attending these infomercial like conferences as the classical principals never become extinct. The prime example is the inclusion of the trap bar deadlift to his program. Years ago Mike before was powerlifting and felt that the movement and respective training injured his back. This lead to the removing of deads from his program. Now he is including deadlifts to his program. Evolution, advancement, or again change that leaves us at the same point? Just like a dog chasing it's tail and not going anywhere, his flip flop thinking leaves the coach dizzy with following the circles of rationale.
It's interesting how those at the front of this biz always write one of those "20 things I've learned" articles where they get to recant their previous views. I guess someone has to make the mistakes for the rest of us to learn from
I'm not being critical here. We all have the right to re-assess our methods.
I agree but as usual "it all depends". What season? What sport? Which athlete? At which point in his/her development?
The squat is not dead. Perhaps it's just sitting quietly in the toolbox waiting for the appropriate person
Exactly. For me, the problem comes when a guy with a product to sell says "everybody" should do this or "nobody" should do that. We aren't all the same and we don't all share the same goals.
The likelihood of Mike Boyle's article causing the wholesale abandonment of the squat is exactly the same as my disapproval of the consumption of soy causing chaos in the commodities markets tomorrow morning. It is irrelevant to the fact that squats, deadlifts, cleans, presses, and bench presses make weak people strong and Coach Boyle's program does not.
Be calm. Train as if this never happened and everything will be fine.
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The likelihood of Mike Boyle's article causing the wholesale abandonment of the squat is exactly the same as my disapproval of the consumption of soy causing chaos in the commodities markets tomorrow morning. It is irrelevant to the fact that squats, deadlifts, cleans, presses, and bench presses make weak people strong and Coach Boyle's program does not.
Be calm. Train as if this never happened and everything will be fine.
So, basically, move along. Nothing to see here.
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______________________________ __________________________ There is no light at the end of the tunnel. You carry the light with you.
Member of the Million Pound Club - Deadlift 4,450 x 225
What are your opinions on this subject? I have not done back squats in a long time (sometimes 1 legged squats, but thats about it) because I have anterior pelvic tilt and I am trying to strengthen the posterior chain. My quads are very overactive right now.
I had a great trainer help me fix my pelvic alignment issues. After he got me able to 'feel' what alignment was right (ran me through a bunch of different core exercises) we did back squats at about 50% load. At every stage up and down he had me stop and make sure to re-align properly. After a few reps I was naturally squatting properly and now I'm working back up in squat weight. Something to think about.
BTW, I'll always think squats and deads are a couple of the best exercises
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Squats - what are your opinions regarding mike boyle?
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