Setting up an upper/lower 4-day split while dieting
I am currently dieting and wanting to change up my training program from a 3 day full-body split to an upper/lower heavy/light split. Problem is, I have never set up a split exactly like this. Would love to hear your thoughts on this: am I doing the right rep ranges/exercises, etc. to keep muscle, etc.?
Day 1: upper heavy
Day 2: lower light
Day 3: off
Day 4: Upper light
Day 5: lower heavy
My problem, I think is that I don't completely understand what is meant by heavy and light. At first I thought it related to volume, then I was told no, it means weight: you use heavier weights, you lift lower reps....so I'm confused, because I thought you always were supposed to lift as heavy weights as you can, regardless of reps?
Yesterday's workout was Upper Body Heavy:
Bench machine: 4x6
Cable Row: 4x6
Overhead press 3x5 (wanted to up the weight, but shoulder is so unstable)
Pull UP 3x5
Rear delt flye 3x8-10
SS
Machine flye 3x8-10
Rope crunch 2x20
SS
side plank 2x30 sec.
Today was my attempt at Lower Body Light:
Db squats 2x10 bw squat 1x12
Leg Press 3x12
Leg extension 3x15
SS
Lying Ham curl 3x15
Step-up with kickback 1x20
Last two days, how does this look?
Upper body light:
Arnold Press 3x8-10
Lat Pull down 3x8-10
Pushups 3x15
One-arm db row 3x15
Ab work 2x20
Back extension 2x20
The last day seems awfully intense, where can I change things and can y'all help me understand the heavy/light thing and maybe a better set up?
I'm going to add in cardio as needed and as I feel I can do. Unfortunately, I have to take that PT test again, so running will have to come back in the picture. But HIIT on one leg day for sure.
As far as the heavy/light thing-do you not have common sense? It's an elementary thing to grasp.
Honestly Fulmen, no reason to be rude about it...
fluteangel, on your "lighter" days you will want to use a higher rep range. So, for instance, let's say you are squatting. If you can squat 100 lbs for 12 reps, you will want to do several sets of 100lbs in the 10-12 rep range. If you use 100lbs and do 5 reps, that's pretty pointless as it won't be challenging. Same of the "heavy" days. If you can lift 150lbs for 5 reps, you would want to do your sets in the 4-5 rep range.
I've never done a lower/upper split ever, so you're on your own.
As far as the heavy/light thing-do you not have common sense? It's an elementary thing to grasp.
On heavy days, go heavy (which means you'll end up doing less reps..since it's heavy ass weight).
On light days, do lighter weight (thus enabling you to do more reps).
Then why did you reply? Other than to be rude...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AS
Honestly Fulmen, no reason to be rude about it...
fluteangel, on your "lighter" days you will want to use a higher rep range. So, for instance, let's say you are squatting. If you can squat 100 lbs for 12 reps, you will want to do several sets of 100lbs in the 10-12 rep range. If you use 100lbs and do 5 reps, that's pretty pointless as it won't be challenging. Same of the "heavy" days. If you can lift 150lbs for 5 reps, you would want to do your sets in the 4-5 rep range.
Thanks AS, I appreciate the help. Any suggestions on the layout above? I'm dieting, so I want to make sure I don't do anything that will cause me to lose muscle (I'm taking in enough protein so nutrition is covered) but I've never set up one like this.
Im not an expert with program design, but as long as you are lifting fairly heavy every once in a while you shouldn't lose any significant amount of muscle. Your diet will be the biggest factor in how much fat you lose. When dieting, I prefer to stick to the big movements (squats, pressing, rows, deadlift, dips, cleans, etc..) and cut out stuff like flyes and leg extensions.
Looking at your avi, you've done quite well with yourself already! Love your arms, lady!!
Based on the response from AS, it looks like your reps are conducive to the heavy and light days. Less reps on heavy days and more reps on light.
I'm starting to work out in a way to prepare for a figure competition and my concern is finding the right balance of diet without losing muscle. I'm meeting with a competition diet coach on Satureday and can't wait to hear what she has to say!
Im not an expert with program design, but as long as you are lifting fairly heavy every once in a while you shouldn't lose any significant amount of muscle. Your diet will be the biggest factor in how much fat you lose. When dieting, I prefer to stick to the big movements (squats, pressing, rows, deadlift, dips, cleans, etc..) and cut out stuff like flyes and leg extensions.
Thanks! That eases my mind, I'm definitely lifting heavy during two days, and the other two, well, I'm not going completely light, not like just cardio. I have been doing the 3 day split with the big stuff for a long time and haven't had the fluffy stuff like flyes and leg extensions, which is why I wanted to add them in.
If you want to do fluffy stuff, thats fine but i don't think its really necessary. I prefer to do heavy squats and heavy deads on different days, whichever one I would do second is going to suffer from the first most likely. You could split your leg days into a squat/quad-dominant day where you could pair squats with stuff like lunges, step-ups, leg extensions, and then a deadlift/hip-dominant day where you do deadlift with lifts like good mornings, glute-ham raises, cleans, etc... Just an idea.
If you want to do fluffy stuff, thats fine but i don't think its really necessary. I prefer to do heavy squats and heavy deads on different days, whichever one I would do second is going to suffer from the first most likely. You could split your leg days into a squat/quad-dominant day where you could pair squats with stuff like lunges, step-ups, leg extensions, and then a deadlift/hip-dominant day where you do deadlift with lifts like good mornings, glute-ham raises, cleans, etc... Just an idea.
Agreed...however, if you did enough squats, you wouldn't even need any extra exercises. I put deads on back day, and if you did squats+stiff legged deads+calf raises, you'd be more than done.
Of course, I'm just speaking what works for me, even though it's basic and should work for everyone else.
Dos's "Power Training" has leg training on every session, but it's very low volume. Every training session starts with an explosive lift, then four sets of either a knee or hip dominant lift. I liked the results that I got from that. It keeps you from having a day where the training is a giant CNS drain. The downside is that it's not great for developing specific lifts. If you're working on trying to build a big Deadlift that isn't ideal but for overall physique and fitness it was fine.
That could be something that you'd try. Do a handful of sets on your legs each day. But, don't go overboard. Just one exercise. I'm going away from it as I'm trying to develop the big lifts and I think you need more volume is those circumstances.
If you're dieting then I think that you want to keep your volume as low as you can while still putting enough stress on the body to maintain muscle mass. I think in that situation you avoid the fluff as much as you can. Stick to the big "bang for your buck" exercises with heavy weight, but keep the volume down. My entire exercise selection consists of some variation of just these exercises: squat, dead, bench press, row, pull up, overhead press, and cleans. Thats it.
If you want to do fluffy stuff, thats fine but i don't think its really necessary. I prefer to do heavy squats and heavy deads on different days, whichever one I would do second is going to suffer from the first most likely. You could split your leg days into a squat/quad-dominant day where you could pair squats with stuff like lunges, step-ups, leg extensions, and then a deadlift/hip-dominant day where you do deadlift with lifts like good mornings, glute-ham raises, cleans, etc... Just an idea.
Glad you pointed that out; I don't think I really meant to have squats and deads on the same day, but since I didn't have a quad dom. and hip dom. day, I didn't know how to set things up. I HAVE noticed that I have bigger quads and I really don't want to focus on them too much, because I think I'd be ok with losing a little there, because my legs are unbalanced. But I definitely like your idea. Should I even worry about having a quad dominant day be counter productive since I'm dieting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaddukes
If you're dieting then I think that you want to keep your volume as low as you can while still putting enough stress on the body to maintain muscle mass. I think in that situation you avoid the fluff as much as you can. Stick to the big "bang for your buck" exercises with heavy weight, but keep the volume down. My entire exercise selection consists of some variation of just these exercises: squat, dead, bench press, row, pull up, overhead press, and cleans. Thats it.
I have been doing that, and doing that for over a year now, so I'm tired of the 3-day split and JUST focusing on the heavy lifts. I'm bored, you know? I'm not working on increasing my lifts and my legs really don't need any more size, so training them every workout won't be happening, but I appreciate the help!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerManDL
To answer the original question, just adjust the rep range. Have one day in the 4-6 range and another in the 8-12. That's plenty.
Although if you're dieting I would not do what you're doing from the outset.
Thanks, that helps clear things up.
If you wouldn't do what I'm doing, what WOULD you do? 3-day?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonester
Why not do a conjugate method like the WS4SB template. It takes into consideration that you'll be doing other athletic type work.
I train with some form of an upper/lower split, although there is upper body work on all four days.
Since you're dieting, I would cut the volume back alot on all four sessions, 3-4 exercises per session should be plenty.
The conjugate method is okay, but is only really necessary for off season athletes who have a limited amount of time in which to improve multiple strength qualities. You have many more options to play with.
Rather than heavy and light for the lower body days, although this will work fine, I wouldn't bother splitting them up like this, I don't see any advantage in seperating lower and higher rep work. I'd split it up like this, day 1: squat + lighter hamstring focused exercises, day2: deadlift + lighter quadricep focused exercises.
As for the upper body stuff, I'd make the light day comparatively easier on the pressing movements.
Since you're dieting, I would cut the volume back alot on all four sessions, 3-4 exercises per session should be plenty.
Rather than heavy and light for the lower body days, although this will work fine, I wouldn't bother splitting them up like this, I don't see any advantage in seperating lower and higher rep work. I'd split it up like this, day 1: squat + lighter hamstring focused exercises, day2: deadlift + lighter quadricep focused exercises.
As for the upper body stuff, I'd make the light day comparatively easier on the pressing movements.
The advantage I was seeing to having a lower light/heavy split was that I'd hit my entire leg musculature heavy once a week - enough to stimulate my legs to hold onto the muscle they have, but since I feel I have more than enough, I don't want to focus on them, yk? I know I can't build in a deficit,so I'm not worried about that, but I was thinking that with one heavy and one light day, the light day would be more of a "recovery" workout, so to speak, high rep stuff to get the blood flowing to the muscle and focusing on endurance rather than size so much.
Since you said it would work fine any specific suggestions for making it really work?
Thanks for the Upper help, too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Dog
If you're dieting, you probably shouldn't do a program that encourages PRs at the same time.
Your own program has way too much volume (it's "high" as Flumen says). Unless you're eating a lot, you're going to burn out.
Agreed, and burnout is what I want to avoid.
So here's the real question: what's the underlying format for really setting up this program?
Does anyone have a good template I can work with? Something that would look like:
Upper body Heavy:
1 vertical pushing heavy movement
1 vertical pulling heavy movement
etc....
The more experience I get doing this, the less weight training days I'm inclined to give. Three is probably the maximum days-per-week I'd suggest to somebody dieting, and even then I scale the volume back and don't try to push out PRs (let them happen, yes, grind them out, no).
If you still want to do upper/lower, then try doing it on a rotating A-B-A, B-A-B arrangement.
I'd also channel Fred Hahn and do only 1-2 relatively hard sets, rather than knocking out set after set for each muscle group.
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The more experience I get doing this, the less weight training days I'm inclined to give. Three is probably the maximum days-per-week I'd suggest to somebody dieting, and even then I scale the volume back and don't try to push out PRs (let them happen, yes, grind them out, no).
If you still want to do upper/lower, then try doing it on a rotating A-B-A, B-A-B arrangement.
I'd also channel Fred Hahn and do only 1-2 relatively hard sets, rather than knocking out set after set for each muscle group.
The last time I was in a serious deficit, I did two day of planned lifting. Each was a push, a pull, and a lower body.
Day 1 I channeled Chad Waterbury and did about 10 reps of each of the three lifts. Sets from 3 reps down to singles, depending on the lift and what I was able to actually lift that day. I just finished 10 reps plus what it took for that last set.
Day 2 was 3x5 for each lift.
On Saturday I did a bootcamp, KBs, and a lot of physical activity, so I did something of a higher calorie day on Friday/Saturday, then back to the low calorie thing.
The more experience I get doing this, the less weight training days I'm inclined to give. Three is probably the maximum days-per-week I'd suggest to somebody dieting, and even then I scale the volume back and don't try to push out PRs (let them happen, yes, grind them out, no).
If you still want to do upper/lower, then try doing it on a rotating A-B-A, B-A-B arrangement.
I'd also channel Fred Hahn and do only 1-2 relatively hard sets, rather than knocking out set after set for each muscle group.
I would really like to do a 4-day split, but in no way do I want to go hardcore on the volume. Would a safer volume be say no more than 4 exercises per day with knocking the set/rep scheme down to 3x5 for heavy and 2x10 for light stuff? I'm not trying to hit PRs on ANYTHING; when dieting, I just want to maintain my strength, so just because I have heavy lifts, I hope I'm not giving the impression I'm trying to go heavier on every one of them.
So if I did 1-2 relatively hard sets, how does that factor into structuring a light day and a heavy day?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Dog
The last time I was in a serious deficit, I did two day of planned lifting. Each was a push, a pull, and a lower body.
Day 1 I channeled Chad Waterbury and did about 10 reps of each of the three lifts. Sets from 3 reps down to singles, depending on the lift and what I was able to actually lift that day. I just finished 10 reps plus what it took for that last set.
Day 2 was 3x5 for each lift.
On Saturday I did a bootcamp, KBs, and a lot of physical activity, so I did something of a higher calorie day on Friday/Saturday, then back to the low calorie thing.
Is the 3 sets down to 1 called wave loading, or something like that? Maybe I could do that for a heavy day and the 3x10 for the light on everything? I like the idea of a bootcamp/metabolic/bodyweight circuit type thing on the weekend, with two days of lifting.
What I'm seeing is that so far, no one really has any suggestions for a 4-day lifting split while dieting...even with reduced volume? Is there no way to set this up as a light/heavy 4 day workout without going volume crazy and burning muscle? Believe me, I know what I have sucks, it was just my first attempt to throw something out there, and get some ideas how to fix it.
Oh you could do it, don't get me wrong. I just don't see why you'd necessarily want to; one more day of work is just one more stress added to already limited recovery ability, and I can't really see what you'd gain from it. It's a simple cost:benefit problem.
If you're hell-bent on it, I'd probably have a heavy day as One Hard Exercise for a couple sets in the 3-6 range, then have the light day as purely metabolic conditioning stuff.
No need to mess around with all the intermediate rep-ranges and doing a ton of exercises.
So maybe
Day 1 - Heavy Pressing - warmup, hard set of 3, hard set of 6-8
throw in a back exercise for a couple sets of 5-6
Day 2 - Heavy Squat - warmup, hard set of 3, hard set of 6-8
maybe add a hamstring exercise, or if you do a deadlift as the big lift, do a quad exercise instead.
Day 3 - Conditioning Upper - circuit* for 12-15 reps
Day 4 - Conditioning Lower - circuit** for 12-15 reps
* "circuit" implying "just do machines or something" and "keep rest intervals fairly brief", not necessarily any supersetting or whatever.
** this could involve anything from the above to the general conditioning stuff Lost Dog mentioned.
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You should take a look at Jim Wendlers 5/3/1 ebook it has a really good 4 day upper lower split that I think is damn good. I have been doing it for the last 6 months and its been a great program.
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I tried WS4SB while on a calorie deficit. I don't recommend it.
I don't see anything wrong with strength training while on a deficit. I would consider saving as much muscle and strength as possible while losing fat to be of utmost importance.
I see more similarities than differences in these programmes.
It's all about knowing thyself. Tweak these very basic and very good programmes to your recovery abilities. PowerMans post above is a good example of this and how I periodically work. As a matter of fact some of my best "feel great" weeks have been on this type of work.
I don't see anything wrong with strength training while on a deficit. I would consider saving as much muscle and strength as possible while losing fat to be of utmost importance.
It's all about knowing thyself. Tweak these very basic and very good programmes to your recovery abilities. PowerMans post above is a good example of this and how I periodically work. As a matter of fact some of my best "feel great" weeks have been on this type of work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerManDL
If you're hell-bent on it, I'd probably have a heavy day as One Hard Exercise for a couple sets in the 3-6 range, then have the light day as purely metabolic conditioning stuff.
No need to mess around with all the intermediate rep-ranges and doing a ton of exercises.
So maybe
Day 1 - Heavy Pressing - warmup, hard set of 3, hard set of 6-8
throw in a back exercise for a couple sets of 5-6
Day 2 - Heavy Squat - warmup, hard set of 3, hard set of 6-8
maybe add a hamstring exercise, or if you do a deadlift as the big lift, do a quad exercise instead.
Day 3 - Conditioning Upper - circuit* for 12-15 reps
Day 4 - Conditioning Lower - circuit** for 12-15 reps
* "circuit" implying "just do machines or something" and "keep rest intervals fairly brief", not necessarily any supersetting or whatever.
** this could involve anything from the above to the general conditioning stuff Lost Dog mentioned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvernacchio
Flute
You should take a look at Jim Wendlers 5/3/1 ebook it has a really good 4 day upper lower split that I think is damn good. I have been doing it for the last 6 months and its been a great program.
You guys are all so helpful, thank you so much! I will definitely check out the 5/3/1 stuff. In the meantime, I hate to throw one more variable in here but, I have to re-take the PT test in 3 weeks (the running was the part I failed due to the flu, but I still suck at it, situps aren't so great either) so I've got two goals going on at the same time: fat loss and passing the pt test (not MAXING, just passing Maxing will be next year)
How would I fit it PT improvement training in the scope of a lifting program? If I was going to do the K.I.S.S. lifting routine and incorporate PT training into it without overdoing myself on a deficit, how would I do that? THE pt training is a schedule I'm following that's printed in a military magazine, basically running every other day either long distance or sprints and MWF doing ab work and pushup progressions. How would that fit in with this program?
Day 1 - Upper body
bench press - 4×4
1-arm DB row - 3×8
High cable rear delt flyes - 2×12 Day 2 - Lower body
Squat - 4×4
1-leg RDL - 3×8
Back extensions - 2×12 Day 3 - Upper bod
chin up - 4×4
DB shoulder press - 3×8
Rope Face pulls - 2×12 Day 4 - Lower body
Deadlift - 4×4
Split Squat - 3×8
Glute bridge with stability ball hamstring curl - 2×12
I don't think this amount of training will compromise my fat loss, but quick question here, is there any way to know for sure (besides trial and error) if I need to actually do refeeds or not? I've read Lyle's Flexible Dieting book and it seems like it would be helpful for anyone on a diet, but after this weekend, I didn't see a whole lot of change. Maybe try it again next time with a little more structure?
With PowermanDL's suggestion, obviously the pushups and ab work lend themselves easily to the circuits, but with the lifting, should I just do them (the pushups and situps) at a seperate time of day or try to incorporate them into the workout?
Okay so now I am confused.... What EXACTLY is your end game here? You are worried about running an Army PT run (I think that is a 2 mile run) and cannot max situps and pushups yet you have a 4 day lifting program that you are hell bent to do WHILE on a deficit.
I might be all washed up but I would prioritize some things. Looking at the AVI it seems to me that you are probably not in danger of obesity issues. So the defecit thing can probably be put on hold until you pass the PT test which (IMHO) should probably be your main focus over the next weeks. I would drop most of the gym lifting routine stuff and do the running/pushup/situp training program that you have in your hands while eating at maintenance to support the goal of passing the test.
This will give you a lot of benefits for when you do go back to a lifting routine. General fitness plays into weight training and vice versus, but they do not take each others place IMHO. Focus on getting your general fitness up. If your intention is to be a soldier, then you ought really to be able to run 2 miles with some degree of ease anyway.
I guess I am trying to perhaps say that you are trying to do too much and you will likely not do well if you don't prioritize and give your body the right amount of rest for the goals you are trying to do... You can do it all... just not all at the same time.
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You only have 3 weeks to improve your running, so just work on that and do maint lifting until the PT test is over. Nothing bad will happen in 3 weeks if you lift AT ALL. Come up with the perfect plan later. Right now your perfect plan should be not to fail the PT test. That's it.
Setting up an upper/lower 4-day split while dieting
any specific suggestions for making it really work?
Maxing will be next year
)
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