You always hear people saying things like: "Yeah bro you gotta keep your body guessing," or "I always do that same routine, I just switch up the exercises to keep my muscles confused." I never understood that.
My take on this: Your body doesn't guess anything about what you're doing, it just acts, and it isn't confused. It doesn't know you're using dumbbells instead of a barbell for bench, and it doesn't know you're doing chinups instead of curls. You're working your chest and you're working your biceps, respectively, and that's it. That's just what common sense is telling me. Of course, I could be completely wrong.
It's true that there's going to be a point of diminishing returns regarding exercising the exact same muscle in the exact same way. Some people abuse that into thinking that making changes for the sake of confusing something is "good".
Personally, as long as overload is present and your program is designed around doing what you want it to do, beat that shit into the ground. Squeeze every last drop of progress you can before making a change.
You can change the rep schemes and loads as part of your greater plan but for the most part the lifts aren't normally something to spend a lot of concern on. You HAVE to lift more weight (or whatever training goal you have) over a period of time. If you want to do that with one lift or 10 it doesn't really matter.
Half-Full, I have also heard this a lot. Especially from trainers which perplexes me. That is like trying to improve your golf swing by changing it every single time you address the ball. You sure don't become a better ball striker if you don't have a grooved-in swing plane. You don't become more efficient at a movement unless you do it a number of times properly.
Most people just into it are so sloppy with form that they're accidentally "confusing their muscles' anyway. Judging by my gym, most people can keep consistent from rep to rep, much less week to week.
Aside from never getting the correct form, is there any truth to wanting to "confuse your muscles" by varying exercises, even if they are working the same body part(s)?
This reminds me of a method with an awful name : DoggCrapp. It works under the assumption that you get the maximum muscle gains by adding weight (or reps) to the bar/db etc. for every single workout.
When that no longer works, the method demands you to switch to another exercise that works the same muscle, apply the same principle until there's no more progress either.. do this a couple of times & then switch back to the original exercise and most of the time there will be progress again.
There's much more to this program than what I'm telling but the very simple truth is (for me at least) that unless I practice something very often, I won't get good at it.. this also holds true for 'relatively simple but heavy' lifts like bench pressing or deadlifts.
The best strength gains I had were when I'd do each & every one of them 3 out of 4 workouts in varying loads/intensity as in 5x5 or waves /3x8 /2x12 , despite everyone telling me I 'should' only deadlift once a week.. just didn't work that way as by the time the next weekly DL came around, I'd spend half of the sets trying to find my groove.
Aside from never getting the correct form, is there any truth to wanting to "confuse your muscles" by varying exercises, even if they are working the same body part(s)?
The more "isolated" the movement, the more this might be true.
You can't really find a good alternative for a squat or deadlift -- those are just awesome, integral parts of an exercise plan. Besides, which body part would you target to find a substitute for those "compound lifts"?
This is where your point that "the body doesn't know whether it's chinpus or curls" falls a little flat, even just talking about the biceps. Chinups work so many other, larger muscles besides the biceps that there's potential for more muscular microtrauma, more growth and more endocrinological goodness. The bicep may not know what the exercise was, but the body does.
I have a lot of variance in my routine but it's because I don't care a ton about progression right now. I'm in maintenance mode and just want to have enough fun in the gym that I keep going. So Mondays are closed chain / prehab, Tuesdays are powerlifting/strongman, Thursdays are olympic/explosive and Fridays are bodybuilding.
So there's something to be said for the adage "Everything works, but nothing works forever." Even my weirdass plan will need to change at some point.
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The only reason I use a variety of movements in a workout is to prevent boredom. If I were trying to make gains I would probably make certain compound movements show up pretty frequently in my program. Look at oly lifters. Do you think they spend a lot of time doing kipping pull-ups or lateral raises? No, they do their lifts.
I agree. Boredom seems to b ethe biggest reason for variety. I think Gray Cook mentions something about the number of exercises he uses shrinking over time (one of the secret DVDs I believe).
On the other hand I know some espouse the whole idea of doing the "same but different" for continued gains. Im assuming this is more due to muscular recruitment than actual muscular stimulus but I may be off here.
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This is where your point that "the body doesn't know whether it's chinpus or curls" falls a little flat, even just talking about the biceps. Chinups work so many other, larger muscles besides the biceps that there's potential for more muscular microtrauma, more growth and more endocrinological goodness. The bicep may not know what the exercise was, but the body does.
Good point. What if I changed it to something like supinated grip dumbbell curls vs. any of the following: neutral grip dumbbell curls, barbell curls, or hammer curls. That makes a better point to what I'm arguing. Well, trying to figure out, not arguing.
Good point. What if I changed it to something like supinated grip dumbbell curls vs. any of the following: neutral grip dumbbell curls, barbell curls, or hammer curls. That makes a better point to what I'm arguing. Well, trying to figure out, not arguing.
Yes, that's a better comparison, and I have two opinions on it:
1) Changing things up like that certainly induces DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness), but that's not always an indication of progress.
2) If any of us is spending significant time/energy figuring out how to periodize our curls, that that's probably not optimal for overall fitness. It would be good to know for bodybuilding, though.
__________________ Megaloi -- My Blog
"Every society honors its live conformists and its dead troublemakers."
- Mignon McLaughlin
The only reason I use a variety of movements in a workout is to prevent boredom. If I were trying to make gains I would probably make certain compound movements show up pretty frequently in my program. Look at oly lifters. Do you think they spend a lot of time doing kipping pull-ups or lateral raises? No, they do their lifts.
Yet, are smaller than bodybuilders, and both groups use aas and/or hgh.
Nevertheless, I agree with you. It's just a pet peeve of mine that Oly Lifters are considered larger or stronger than bb'ers and are the go-to example.
You can't really find a good alternative for a squat or deadlift -- those are just awesome, integral parts of an exercise plan. Besides, which body part would you target to find a substitute for those "compound lifts"?
This is where your point that "the body doesn't know whether it's chinpus or curls" falls a little flat, even just talking about the biceps. Chinups work so many other, larger muscles besides the biceps that there's potential for more muscular microtrauma, more growth and more endocrinological goodness. The bicep may not know what the exercise was, but the body does.
So there's something to be said for the adage "Everything works, but nothing works forever." Even my weirdass plan will need to change at some point.
Who in their right mind would use chin-ups as a main exercise biceps? I could understand if you don't want large arms, because of all the ones who I've seen that use chin-ups for biceps have small biceps.
Also, I haven't changed my routine in a couple of years, yet I continue to grow. You don't to have change routines if you have progressive overload. Basically I keep lifting as simple as possible, and so far that has worked.
Now don't get me wrong-I do squats, deadlifts, pull-ups, et cetera. You can't beat the basics (although I consider curls as "basic" for biceps, which should be the case).
Aside from never getting the correct form, is there any truth to wanting to "confuse your muscles" by varying exercises, even if they are working the same body part(s)?
Why would you want to "confuse" your body in the first place? Wouldn't that warrant all sort of bad results?
Like say, for instance, I did military presses one week with low reps. The next week I went into a large amount of reps. Then I go back into low reps the following..bla bla chaos ensues. I don't see how consistent hypertrophy would happen, not even to mention ANY strength gains.
Just keep it simple; do the basics and progressively overload your muscles.
Who in their right mind would use chin-ups as a main exercise biceps?
Barring injury or some similar issue who in their right mind wants to isolate the biceps for multiple movements? If you are looking for problems down the road then go for it bro.
I'll be the one moving well and still getting stronger 10 years from now.
And a 200lb elite O lifter will will produce more force and be more powerful than a 200lb elite BBer. That's all there is to it.
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Barring injury or some similar issue who in their right mind wants to isolate the biceps for multiple movements? If you are looking for problems down the road then go for it bro.
I'll be the one moving well and still getting stronger 10 years from now.
And a 200lb elite O lifter will will produce more force and be more powerful than a 200lb elite BBer. That's all there is to it.
I'm with you here. Many people (aesthetics aside) will be just fine with the big lifts and using pull ups for biceps. I'm big on moving the body as a whole, the way it was meant to move. I think isolation is usually better suited for aesthetics, working on imbalances, and some other type of rehab.
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Originally Posted by Fulmen
Why would you want to "confuse" your body in the first place? Wouldn't that warrant all sort of bad results?
Like say, for instance, I did military presses one week with low reps. The next week I went into a large amount of reps. Then I go back into low reps the following..bla bla chaos ensues. I don't see how consistent hypertrophy would happen, not even to mention ANY strength gains.
Just keep it simple; do the basics and progressively overload your muscles.
That's not really what I meant by confusion. I meant more of the different exercises for the same muscles, not really in the sense of varying rep ranges. But that's an important point too. However, you actually described a sequence, albeit rather haphazardly, of a type of periodization, which works great for some people.
BB'ers are fun. Lots of fluffy, non-functional muscle. They look intimidating but they fold like paper. They lack grace in their movements anyway, by virtue of their ignorant training methods, but it's made even worse when they have to flex as they move, so as to always look full and pumped. (Where's the beach? Over rrrrr there!). And they walk with horrendous gaits because they want to flop their quads as they walk (Damn that Barry DeMay!).
What good is form without function? I'd rather be able to run fast and climb and jump and play various sports. They juice up and grow in spite of their non-existent training knowledge, and they become "authorities" on fitness. Cracks me up.
But hey, if wearing a banana hammock and painting yourself in bar-b-que sauce is your thang....
Barring injury or some similar issue who in their right mind wants to isolate the biceps for multiple movements? If you are looking for problems down the road then go for it bro.
I'll be the one moving well and still getting stronger 10 years from now.
And so will I, because you have to be a total retard to get injuries from curling.
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And a 200lb elite O lifter will will produce more force and be more powerful than a 200lb elite BBer. That's all there is to it.
Yea, in clean and jerk and snatch, and possibly front squatting. However, in other areas, such as bench pressing, deadlifting, (omgdontsayit) curling-BBers would win.
Don't get mad, though. I just think it's funny how Olympic Lifters are viewed as demi-gods nowadays and OLY Lifts are uncomparable.
BB'ers are fun. Lots of fluffy, non-functional muscle. They look intimidating but they fold like paper. They lack grace in their movements anyway, by virtue of their ignorant training methods, but it's made even worse when they have to flex as they move, so as to always look full and pumped. (Where's the beach? Over rrrrr there!). And they walk with horrendous gaits because they want to flop their quads as they walk (Damn that Barry DeMay!).
What good is form without function? I'd rather be able to run fast and climb and jump and play various sports. They juice up and grow in spite of their non-existent training knowledge, and they become "authorities" on fitness. Cracks me up.
But hey, if wearing a banana hammock and painting yourself in bar-b-que sauce is your thang....
I like to consider myself a bodybuilder, but I'd draw the line if I weren't able to sprint anymore, play sports or looked like the modern Olympia line-up. Hell, I bet the average BBer of today would get winded on my speedbag or heavy bag.
I'm with you here. Many people (aesthetics aside) will be just fine with the big lifts and using pull ups for biceps. I'm big on moving the body as a whole, the way it was meant to move. I think isolation is usually better suited for aesthetics, working on imbalances, and some other type of rehab.
Where did I state to not do big lifts? Also, why limit your growth by doing pull-ups, when you could be doing curls and get greater growth? The guys with the biggest arms aren't doing pull-ups to get bigger arms.
Clearly I need to stop woodworking and finishing the lamp I was doing, seeing as I isolated my arm with the saw. And damn, holding that bucket! Better drop and use both hands next time! I've never caught on to the "body as a whole" movement. Good for a "lol" though.
Don't worry Flumen, you are still a hero to Charlie.
I love clients that used to do typical BBing because they are always jacked up and move like shit, so it'll take alot of sessions to get them moving and feeling well. And they are usually pretty damn weak in a lot of movements.
One of the funniest is taking some dude with curl arms and let them try and climb a rope. They find out real quick how useless all that curling is (unless the goal was to impress other dudes at the bar).
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Where did I state to not do big lifts? Also, why limit your growth by doing pull-ups, when you could be doing curls and get greater growth? The guys with the biggest arms aren't doing pull-ups to get bigger arms.
You didn't. I just said that many people will be fine with just the big lifts. That was just a statement. Why are you getting so defensive?
The guys with the biggest arms can't use them for nearly anything but doing curls either.
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Clearly I need to stop woodworking and finishing the lamp I was doing, seeing as I isolated my arm with the saw. And damn, holding that bucket! Better drop and use both hands next time! I've never caught on to the "body as a whole" movement. Good for a "lol" though.
That analogy is not doing your argument any good. It makes no sense in the context of the conversation. Your body always works as a whole unit. You will never do any movement in life that will practically more similar to a curl than chin up.
You don't have to agree with me as far as which way to train, and that's fine. But to argue that you'll be training the movement(s) of your body, in general, better by doing isolation than compound lifts is just asinine IMO.
BB'ers are fun. Lots of fluffy, non-functional muscle. They look intimidating but they fold like paper. They lack grace in their movements anyway, by virtue of their ignorant training methods, but it's made even worse when they have to flex as they move, so as to always look full and pumped. (Where's the beach? Over rrrrr there!). And they walk with horrendous gaits because they want to flop their quads as they walk (Damn that Barry DeMay!).
What good is form without function? I'd rather be able to run fast and climb and jump and play various sports. They juice up and grow in spite of their non-existent training knowledge, and they become "authorities" on fitness. Cracks me up.
But hey, if wearing a banana hammock and painting yourself in bar-b-que sauce is your thang....
LMAO! You're my hero. I have a fantasy of writing something like that over at BB you know what. Their over 35 forum is full of old farts who want to look buff instead of improving their athletic abilities. I really don't get it.
While I'm here, I'll add that as far as movement, function etc goes, pull ups would be THE goal to go for. Chin ups are a great exercise, but it's the pull up that one needs to get good at. No where in my life have I had to pull myself up, over or through using a hands facing me position.. Pulling myself over a wall, out of a pool, back onto an over turned boat with supinated hands just never happens.
Folks who aren't good at pull ups really need to work hard at improving this most basic "movement". It can save your life.
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My take on this: Your body doesn't guess anything about what you're doing, it just acts, and it isn't confused. It doesn't know you're using dumbbells instead of a barbell for bench, and it doesn't know you're doing chinups instead of curls. You're working your chest and you're working your biceps, respectively, and that's it. That's just what common sense is telling me. Of course, I could be completely wrong.
You're right. The body is a moron. The brain, now that's a different story. It all starts there. Ever feel the momentary confusion when you find yourself inadvertently putting the other leg into your pants first? I can see this being used to ignite an adaptation. (and no, I don't mean using your pants)
Like say, for instance, I did military presses one week with low reps. The next week I went into a large amount of reps. Then I go back into low reps the following..bla bla chaos ensues. I don't see how consistent hypertrophy would happen, not even to mention ANY strength gains.
Actually, I've seen some of my best strength/size gains doing something like this. Why does chaos ensue?
You really don't think an underhand chin-up is inferior to a curl for bicep development?
Yes. I picture the guy curling 80s as having bigger arms than the one doing chin-ups for biceps...but that's just beating a dead horse. You'll always have the chin-ups for biceps crowd vs db curl for biceps crowd.
Also, I'm not saying that pull-ups don't have a place. For building a back, yea-for biceps-nah.
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Originally Posted by kuri
One of the funniest is taking some dude with curl arms and let them try and climb a rope. They find out real quick how useless all that curling is (unless the goal was to impress other dudes at the bar).
I do that "useless curling" and can climb a rope. omg wtffff >:[[[
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Originally Posted by Half Full
Your body always works as a whole unit. You will never do any movement in life that will practically more similar to a curl than chin up.
As far as jobs go and not hobbies that involve a form of climbing, I've always used curling movements for objects such as buckets, bags, bales, etc. and have never had to do a chin-up like movement ever.
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You don't have to agree with me as far as which way to train, and that's fine. But to argue that you'll be training the movement(s) of your body, in general, better by doing isolation than compound lifts is just asinine IMO.
To clear you up, I only feel that way with arms. Bench, deads, squats, pull-ups, etc should be in a routine. You can't beat the basics..it just so happens I believe arms grow better from isolation movements while supplemented with the compound lifts.
Muscle Confusion?
I can see this being used to ignite an adaptation. (and no, I don't mean using your pants)
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