I will say in my current experience of trying to get lean enough to even attempt what you all are discussing in this thread, the journey down to 12% is extremely draining. I've been very successful in going from a 21% 250 to a 16% 227. I've lost 23 lbs of fat in 8 weeks, but it's a drag! Chad, kfisher and Lostdog, I admire what you folks have already done. It takes a lot of dedication to even be discussing partitioning and things like that. The damn thing is that through this journey, we discover that we're not quite as muscular or lean as we originally thought (maybe this is just a man thing). Not only has my waist gone from 42" to 36", my chest has also lost 2" and my arms have lost 1". It's a very humiliating experience, but it's something that needs to be realized before attempting any sort of gaining program. Otherwise, you just get fat again.
THIS is the reason you are dropping so much LBM bro. As you get closer and closer to the lower bf% ranges, it becomes harder and harder to keep LBM while you cut. You can't be dumping weight at this rate without some pretty serious LBM loss. This is the big learning from me from my first cut (designed by me) to this one (Alan designed). All the details on this stuff can be found in the Nov 2008 edition of the AARR.
I have saved substantiallyl more LBM this go around. BTW: this is also the reason it has been so hard for you. It really hasn't been all that hard for me on this go around due to the fact I am not in such a gross deficit.
That said, I agree with the general premise of all that you say and I am getting way, way smaller than I want to get.
Too often there is all this big talk about how much LBM so and so has gained on their bulk.... yet this same so and so have never been lean. So WTF and better Who TF cares?
The real secret to the "clean" bulk is to understand what the pysical limits of your LBM gain really are and to eat to fuel that. It cracks me up whenever I read how people put on 40 or more lbs a year on a bulk. OINK
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
THIS is the reason you are dropping so much LBM bro. As you get closer and closer to the lower bf% ranges, it becomes harder and harder to keep LBM while you cut. You can't be dumping weight at this rate without some pretty serious LBM loss. This is the big learning from me from my first cut (designed by me) to this one (Alan designed). All the details on this stuff can be found in the Nov 2008 edition of the AARR.
I have saved substantiallyl more LBM this go around. BTW: this is also the reason it has been so hard for you. It really hasn't been all that hard for me on this go around due to the fact I am not in such a gross deficit.
That said, I agree with the general premise of all that you say and I am getting way, way smaller than I want to get.
Too often there is all this big talk about how much LBM so and so has gained on their bulk.... yet this same so and so have never been lean. So WTF and better Who TF cares?
The real secret to the "clean" bulk is to understand what the pysical limits of your LBM gain really are and to eat to fuel that. It cracks me up whenever I read how people put on 40 or more lbs a year on a bulk. OINK
I'm not unhappy with LBM loss; heck, I expected that. I'm actually surprised that its been as minimal as it has. I started at 195 LBM and I'm still at around 192ish. My strength levels have remained steady. I do agree with you that at some point, going from 16% to 12% is going to require a different strategy that just a huge caloric deficit.
For me, it's humbling to discover exactly how difficult fat loss in a leaner state is going to be. Even though I've maintained strength up to now, I can see how if I just continue with the PSMF, that will change. That's where I come to the admiration part. You folks that have taken it beyond just weight loss and into body recomposition.
I think your statement about fatter individuals that bulk really rings true! That's who I'm trying to avoid becoming.
Yeah the body recomp thing is a VERY different ballgame requiring more thought than just fat loss typically requires. It isn't actually harder on a physical level but you have to think it through a lot more... People on this board typically equat "bulking" to just eating and lifting like mad all to get as big as possible... (sort of like Matt says he did in going from 130 to 220lbs over the span of a few years) Holy cow man!! Really??? (I just reread this from his earlier post)
If you know that pro bbers only gain like 50lbs total in over their lifetime you can sumize that you can probably only gain 3-10lb of lean in any given year and feed/train for that appropriately.
But getting and keeping are two different things...
Cutting gets harder and harder as you get lower in bf%. Even harder than the mental sapect of it is the fact that you start to dump mass as the bf% goes down so you have to strategize for this in your cut too. Even so it is super humiliating. For me right now is very hard as I am one of the only naturals in the gym where I train and I look like a stick as I am dropping the bf%.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
BTW, I've searched for threads on body recomposition and was surprised to not find very much. It doesn't seem like there have been many discussions about it. I've seen no references to studies. And I've only seen one or two people talk about thier body recomp successes, and those were in this thread! I don't know if I simply didn't find htem, or if there really hasn't been that much discussion.
That's because "recomp" is just some new buzz word and is basically meaningless. I cringe every time I type it out.
The forum is full of people who have "recomped." But, if you look around at comments like "you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time," you wouldn't know it. Well, I guess you can if you call it a recomp.
As to successes, most people lose most of the fat at the beginning. Sometimes they take a break and do a little strength or muscle gaining OR it's just a plain ol' break. Eventually, they want a little muscle, maybe. They eat more and get some, then lose more fat. This could go on forever (I've been doing it for over six years). My "recomp" is going well.
For many newbies, with no muscle mass to speak of, just proper training and eating at or below maint* will take care of a lot of their initial body recomposition wants.
From anecdotal experience, on low carb it IS possible to gain muscle whilst losing fat - in fact it is the bodys natural method. The sugar which carbohydrate breaks down into inhibits the liver's function to burn fat for fuel, and instead causes it to store fat.
There is plenty of research on it. No research to prove that high saturated fat or low carb is 'bad' for you.
I am trying to gain weight but am a hardgainer. i tried 5000kcal a day (ice cream, pasta, rice etc), only gained about 1kg and couldnt keep it.
I tried low carb (high fat, moderate protein), I am the same weight but dropped fat and gained strength. I am happier now - stronger muscles (even if they are only the same size as before), less fat, less tiredness (no more afternoon slump!), less thirst, less heartburn, less lactic acid, better mood, higher HDL, lower LDL.
You can still ramp up the calories on fat and protein and you might gain weight, but functional weight, not bloated water/glucose retaining weight.
I was skeptical at first but I treated it as a lifestyle experiement - if you dont like it just stop! whats the worst that can happen? 6 months in and I am loving it.
THIS is the reason you are dropping so much LBM bro. As you get closer and closer to the lower bf% ranges, it becomes harder and harder to keep LBM while you cut. You can't be dumping weight at this rate without some pretty serious LBM loss. This is the big learning from me from my first cut (designed by me) to this one (Alan designed). All the details on this stuff can be found in the Nov 2008 edition of the AARR.
I have saved substantiallyl more LBM this go around. BTW: this is also the reason it has been so hard for you. It really hasn't been all that hard for me on this go around due to the fact I am not in such a gross deficit.
That said, I agree with the general premise of all that you say and I am getting way, way smaller than I want to get.
Too often there is all this big talk about how much LBM so and so has gained on their bulk.... yet this same so and so have never been lean. So WTF and better Who TF cares?
The real secret to the "clean" bulk is to understand what the pysical limits of your LBM gain really are and to eat to fuel that. It cracks me up whenever I read how people put on 40 or more lbs a year on a bulk. OINK
sorry to double post. For me and many like me, fat loss on low carb is effortless.
I used to be around 16% bf, 69kg, 20mins cardio 3x a week and chronically tired.
now i am 12% bf, 72kg, and the ONLY cardio I do is 5x100m sprints once a week or once a fortnight (average 5 minutes per week). I weight train 3x per week for 1 hour (body weight and dumbells).
I feel great. cardio is not necessary! Low fat diets IMO are bad for you.
just cut he items on the list in the following order from worst to east harmful - be as strict or lax as you want - cutting any of these you will see results (cutting all and eating good fat and protein will get you A1 results):
As you get closer and closer to the lower bf% ranges, it becomes harder and harder to keep LBM while you cut. You can't be dumping weight at this rate without some pretty serious LBM loss. This is the big learning from me from my first cut (designed by me) to this one (Alan designed). All the details on this stuff can be found in the Nov 2008 edition of the AARR. 
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