So here's my question: if lifting heavier will build muscle (assuming a calorie surplus), will doing ab exercises with weights make the waistline bigger?
Being a woman, with a thicker than average waistline naturally, I obviously don't want to make it any bigger. I'm doing NROLFW, and have been adding weight to the swiss ball crunches (e.g. 10-25 lb. plate held on chest or above head), and back extensions (35 lb. plate on chest). Is this going to work against my goal of slimming my waist? I'm aware of the fat loss issue; I have lost a lot of fat from my waist during the first two stages of the program, but even so my waist is still larger than I'd like it to be; my body is just structured that way.
I just want to avoid doing something that I will regret later. . . .
The rectus abdominus and obliques are muscles therefore hypertrophy is possible. But if you are working with higher rep ranges it's unlikely you'll get significant hypertrophy so that you'd notice.
That said knowing what we know about ab/back issues and fat loss I see no good reason to do crunches at all. I've had clients lose 50+ lbs and improve their midsection in terms of aesthetics, strength, and function having never done one crunch.
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Just in terms of responsiveness, those midsection muscles tend to be more "tonic" (responsible for stability) than "phasic" (responsible for movement), and tonic muscles tend not to grow very much.
They do hypertrophy, but it's not to the same degree as other muscle groups. You'll see this in effect in the midsection and the smaller muscles of the forearms, among others.
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The rectus abdominus and obliques are muscles therefore hypertrophy is possible. But if you are working with higher rep ranges it's unlikely you'll get significant hypertrophy so that you'd notice.
That said knowing what we know about ab/back issues and fat loss I see no good reason to do crunches at all. I've had clients lose 50+ lbs and improve their midsection in terms of aesthetics, strength, and function having never done one crunch.
I am aware of the bias against crunches. I used to do them incessantly with my workouts, and had what I thought were strong abs. I recently started NROLFW, and Lou makes his case against the isolated crunches. The only ones I do now are the ones in Alwyn's program for that book. There aren't many, but there are some, and the rep ranges vary from 15 down to 4, depending on the stage. I have seen more results in terms of how my midsection looks and feels just from the program than I saw with the years of crunches.
I'm not crying with disappointment at learning that I don't have to do crunches to have good abs! Just, there are a few thrown into NROLFW, and as the reps go down (with all the exercises), the weight is supposed to go up. I was worried that using excessive weight would cause more muscle growth in the midsection than I would like (being a woman and all ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerManDL
Just in terms of responsiveness, those midsection muscles tend to be more "tonic" (responsible for stability) than "phasic" (responsible for movement), and tonic muscles tend not to grow very much.
They do hypertrophy, but it's not to the same degree as other muscle groups. You'll see this in effect in the midsection and the smaller muscles of the forearms, among others.
This is what I was wondering, thanks. It makes intuitive sense, since body builders don't get huge waists, but I thought that could be illusion due to their huger shoulders and arms!
Nice to know that when I morph into that amazon, I'll still have a relatively small waist.
crunches suck and thats probably why still cannot do a sit up without my feet being held or they will come off the ground (I would have to jerk my body up).
I found a safer way to get my flexion movement muscles strong is doing reverse crunches. I cannot do them yet bodyweight (not strong enough core yet), but I am getting there. Once I can get bodyweight without jerking my legs up to cheat, then I should be able to do a sit up as well with no problem. (pass the sit up test).
I know there are 5 movements to core just like there is with muscles like hip dominant/quad dominant/vertical push & pull, horizontal push & pull..
core...
flexion
extension (usually our strongest..deadlift, clean, rdl, db swings is an example of extension)
I will admit that I haven't done any ab work since I started my diet. My plan is to wait till my fat is off my belly, to see what I have, and worry about it then. I know I have that separated ab muscle thing from childbirth, I can see it actually, and I have another abdominal hernia also (had surgery one time.)
I think what you need to avoid are the weighted oblique exercises, that add "width." Correct me if I'm wrong please.
I'm a guy so it might not mean much but heavy deadlifts and squats thickened my waist. I haven't worshiped in the rack in three years and my jean size is two inches smaller despite actually being 7 lbs heavier. I think it all depends on your genetics.
So if I understand you correctly, MR, you're saying your waist shrunk because your ab muscles atrophied?
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So if I understand you correctly, MR, you're saying your waist shrunk because your ab muscles atrophied?
My waist is visibly and quantitatively smaller than when I was deadlifting and squatting heavy, both in width when viewed from the front and thickness when viewed from the side. Is it all atrophied abs? I doubt it. Muscles in the hip area and glutes are no doubt smaller as well. Some people don't seem to experience much hypertrophy in those areas and keep a very small waist. Others don't have that luxury. Some worse than others of course.
That doesn't mean that your waist will get any thicker and the increase in butt will probably have some value! Of course, large legs and wider shoulders always make your waist appear smaller.
That doesn't mean that your waist will get any thicker and the increase in butt will probably have some value! Of course, large legs and wider shoulders always make your waist appear smaller.
Yeah, yeah; that's what they always say, but to me, no matter how wide my shoulders have gotten, and how large my legs are, I still have a big waist. Proportionately, of course; I'm pretty small in general. Hence the desire to bulk up the bottom half a little; then I can lose more fat there and not disappear.
I think it was something else. It's pretty hard to hypertrophy a muscle with static holds, which are what you are doing when bracing for squats and deadlifts. If you were taking in large amounts of air and bearing down to produce internal pressure, then maybe you were stretching them a bit, and now they've returned to "normal."
Things like crunches (of all kinds), leg raises (of all kinds), dragon flags, side bends, etc. are far more likely to hypertrophy your abs and obliques. On the other hand, there are many slender men and women who do these moves with no waist growth to speak of because they aren't eating to support much muscle growth.
I think genetics play the larger part here. She can only try whatever program that she feels will serve to meet her goals. If her waist gets thicker/wider then she can reevaluate and avoid whatever she thinks caused it. I don't think there's any way to eat for muscle growth and not achieve some amount of hypertrophy even in those muscles. Forearms don't grow as easily as biceps but who has experienced no growth in that area? I don't see how your abs or hip area would be any different.
I think genetics play the larger part here. She can only try whatever program that she feels will serve to meet her goals. If her waist gets thicker/wider then she can reevaluate and avoid whatever she thinks caused it. I don't think there's any way to eat for muscle growth and not achieve some amount of hypertrophy even in those muscles. Forearms don't grow as easily as biceps but who has experienced no growth in that area? I don't see how your abs or hip area would be any different.
I agree. I was talking to you in regards to your waist shrinking after you stopped doing deadlifts and squats. I wasn't very clear.
For her, if she's concerned about the possibility of her waist getting bigger, then she shouldn't do the exercises that are most likely to induce hypertrophy in the first place. I just don't think most people will get much, if any, growth from squats and deadlifts because of the way most people do them, and they can get away with that because they haven't progressed to serious weights.
I agree. I was talking to you in regards to your waist shrinking after you stopped doing deadlifts and squats. I wasn't very clear.
For her, if she's concerned about the possibility of her waist getting bigger, then she shouldn't do the exercises that are most likely to induce hypertrophy in the first place. I just don't think most people will get much, if any, growth from squats and deadlifts because of the way most people do them, and they can get away with that because they haven't progressed to serious weights.
Well, Roland, I'm offended now! I consider myself a serious lifter, and since I have read Starting Strength and corrected my form, I have been able to go up in weight. I mean, I'm not to 200 lbs. or anything, but for someone who began deadlifting at 65 lbs. just a few months ago, I consider 135 to be serious weight! And my last squat session I think I went to 115. Have you looked at my log? So for a girl. . . .humph. . . .
Well, Roland, I'm offended now! I consider myself a serious lifter, and since I have read Starting Strength and corrected my form, I have been able to go up in weight. I mean, I'm not to 200 lbs. or anything, but for someone who began deadlifting at 65 lbs. just a few months ago, I consider 135 to be serious weight! And my last squat session I think I went to 115. Have you looked at my log? So for a girl. . . .humph. . . .
No offense intended! 135 is a lot!
I can deadlift 425 and I don't think I expand my innards with a big ol' breath and push out against my "inner belt" the way I should. Most people don't. I think that's the thing that expands the waist more than hypertrophy.
I can deadlift 425 and I don't think I expand my innards with a big ol' breath and push out against my "inner belt" the way I should. Most people don't. I think that's the thing that expands the waist more than hypertrophy.
You mean Rippetoe's Valsalva maneuver? Hmm...it seems to make sense to do that when I read about it. And isn't isometrically holding the trunk stabilizer muscles tight against the outward push of the Valsalva going to prevent that stretch you mentioned?
Now I'm afraid to do any core work. . . . .I'm gonna get a bulky waistline! I guess I should go back to the barbie weights. I saw some girls doing RDL's with 8 lb. dumbbells the other day. . . .I could join them. What do you think?
I agree. I was talking to you in regards to your waist shrinking after you stopped doing deadlifts and squats. I wasn't very clear.
For her, if she's concerned about the possibility of her waist getting bigger, then she shouldn't do the exercises that are most likely to induce hypertrophy in the first place. I just don't think most people will get much, if any, growth from squats and deadlifts because of the way most people do them, and they can get away with that because they haven't progressed to serious weights.
You could be right. I wouldn't say that I was squatting or deadlifting serious weights considering some of the guys in here. 365 for 6 reps was about it for squats and 455 for 3 in the deadlift. I did pull some mid 500 lb partial deads in the rack to work on grip strength. However, I did do weighted crunches on a Nautilus machine fairly frequently and leg lifts were always a favorite in front of the television ala Bruce Lee. 8)
I can deadlift 425 and I don't think I expand my innards with a big ol' breath and push out against my "inner belt" the way I should. Most people don't. I think that's the thing that expands the waist more than hypertrophy.
By the way man, I can't read your blog while calorie restricted... Makes me too freaking hungry! Also makes me want to watch Serendipity again 8)
Muscle gain in Abs?
Just, there are a few thrown into NROLFW, and as the reps go down (with all the exercises), the weight is supposed to go up. I was worried that using excessive weight would cause more muscle growth in the midsection than I would like (being a woman and all 
). 
Proportionately, of course; I'm pretty small in general. Hence the desire to bulk up the bottom half a little; then I can lose more fat there and not disappear. 
135 is a lot! 
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