I have a question about intensity as it relates to deadlifts. I've established that 315lbs. is my 1RM on conventional deadlifts. So, according to what I'm reading and hearing I should be doing 6 reps at 85% of 1RM. That would mean that I need to do 6 reps of 275lbs. There is no way that I can lift 275 six times! I'm not sure that I could do three!
Am I getting incorrect information or do these guidelines not quite apply to deadlifts? Or is it something that I need to be doing better?
I'm trying to figure out how do I improve my maximal strength on deadlifts without actually trying to max out once per week. I can do rep work in the 205 to 255 range but that is 65-80% of 1RM. Is that really going to work for improving maximal strength?
Hey,
how have you established that? Did you lift it once or are you calculating from another repetition maximum?
Also, the formula was not drawn using the deadlift, but it can be used for calculations with some minor error.
The Brzyck formula assumes a linear progression for each rep. I find that the formula gets more accurate as the reps get higher (9, 10 or more reps), but not so good in the lower rep ranges. Another formula that I use tends to allow for lower reps at the higher percentages (85% for example). Theoretically, most average people can get 5 reps at 85%. There are slightly different co-efficients for deadlifting and other lifts, but they're not enough to account for what your indicating (barely, if at all, getting 3 reps).
What was your very first pull? How long have you been deadlifting? Finally, have you actually tried to determine how many reps you could get at 275, or are you just assuming that you can't get the reps? Deadlift gains usually come very fast at first and you might have just gotten better at 275 and not realized it.
I've been doing some type of deadlift for several months now. But, I didn't have a barbell and I only had dumbbells up to 45lbs. So, I really couldn't do much for heavy lifts. I experimented with using a cable floor pulley to deadlift. I just got a barbell and some plates about a months ago. So, I've only been able to do real barbell deadlifts for one month.
I've tested my max a couple of times and hit 315 twice. Last time I didn't try to go heavier. Tonight I felt strong so after 315 I tried to do 325, but bombed out. I gave it three attempts. I couldn't even move it. It's strange how ten pounds makes such a difference.
Tonight, after warming up, I lifted 205, 255, 295, 315, and then tried to get 325. I waited about five minutes between lifts. All lifts were singles.
After that I went back to 205 and did two sets of three. Then I did 255 for 4 sets of three....but could only get two on the last set. I've never tried to do any rep work above 255. I think the primary issue with reps is my grip. I might be able to do more reps, but I can't hold the bar long enough. On RDL's I'll lose my grip. On conventional deadlifts I'll bomb out on the fourth rep as I can't seem to hold the bar.
I'm not in a strength phase. I'm still losing weight. I'm at 181 right now. I've been up a few pounds for the last couple of weeks. My wife and I just had a baby, so I haven't been eating well. But, I'll be back on the weight loss phase next week, and I won't be focusing too much on max deadlifts. However, I suspect that I'll be hitting my weight loss/body fat goal in about two months. At that point I'll want to start bulking and hitting the strength work heavy. When that occurs I want to know what I'm doing and how to get the most out of my max strength training. So, thats why I'm asking this question now.
I think the primary issue with reps is my grip. I might be able to do more reps, but I can't hold the bar long enough.
Thanks for all the information. I knew there was more to this than meets the eye. Do you use overhand grip or mixed grip? For example, when I deadlift 315 with an overhand grip, I can only do 5 reps before my hands can't hold the weight anymore. With a mixed grip I can do 13 to 14 reps at 315 and grip never enters into the fatigue equation. It's my hips, etc. that can't do the work anymore.
By the way, 315 lbs after 1 month training for a 180 lbs individuals not bad progress at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaS
you should by Starting Strength and read it - I think you'd like his approach to lifting and progressing in strength.
Great suggestion and I think perfect for his situation.
Percents don't always work.. just are a guideline.
If you grip is failing, use chalk first if you arn't already. Also if you have the option make sure the bar you are using has good knurling.
When my girlfirend pulled 315, her best previous pull for reps was only 242lbs x 3, but we concentrating mostly on singles. Deadlifts don't fair well for rep calculators. I once pulled 405lbs x 20 and at the time I was only around a 550lbs puller. Throw that into a rep calculator and you will get closer to 800 which is way off.
As for improving maximal strength at lower %ages for you I think it will work fine. The more advanced you get the more that you typically need higher percents to advance. Don't max out all the time, but don't be afraid of letting you last rep of the set be a total grinder, either.
I use a regular overhand grip as much as I can. When I get into the high 200's, or 300 I use a mixed grip. I've been doing all of my rep work with an overhand grip. It makes sense that if a mixed grip allows me to lift heavier, then it would also allow me to do more reps of a lighter weight. But, since the grip seems to be the weaklink should I stick with an overhand grip until my grip gets stronger? Or should I use what allows me to lift more weight. When using a mixed grip I'm careful to write down which hand is pronated so that I can keep track and be sure to switch it on every set.
I don't have chalk.....oops! Is that something you can pick up at a Dick's Sporting Goods, or will I have to order it?
Thanks for the compliments/encouragement as well. I'm happy to be able to lift anything over three hundred pounds after months of being in a calorie deficit. Over the next two months I'll be getting back to a pretty strict diet. I won't be shocked if I lose a bit of max strength while losing those last ten to fifteen pounds. But, so far I've been able to lose weight and keep improving on my strength gains.
Once I hit my goal of sub 12% body fat I'll be hitting a true max strength phase while not in a deficit. I hope at that point that I'll be able to really make some solid improvements. In the meantime I'm reading as much as I can. I'll get getting the Rippetoe book as well. I want to have a very solid plan of action in place before I hit my fat loss goals so that I can transition quickly with a solid plan in place!
I'll also add that I feel better today than I do after most heavy deadlift days. I'm usually pretty beat up all through my upper back, shoulders, and hips. But, last night while lifting I felt really good. 315 wasn't as hard as it was last time. And I feel like my technique is getting better with each session. The bar is staying closer to my body. my hips are hinging better, I'm using more of my hips and less of my back, etc.
There is a starting strength wiki where you can read his Texas Method, which is for intermediates. Since starting strength is for beginners that would constantly be adding weights every workout, the Texas Method treats every workout as if it's every week.
You gotta read it to understand what I'm saying.
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I would use a mixed grip when grip is the limiting factor. Mixed grip will still work your grip.
Also, I notice you are concerned about strength loss. At the strength level you are at and the bodyfat you are at (>12%) there should be minimal strength loss while loosing fat. With the right program and diet there is no reason why you can't gain strength in this stage.. Especially in the deadlift which is a lift not very influenced by loss of weight (unlike the bench press). I would take a good look into your programming first, then make sure your deficit on your diet is not to high.
I did 275lbs. for six reps on RDL's the other night. But, the form wasn't that good. The eccentric portion kills me! I'm going to back the weight down a bit and focus on better form. Then I'll work my way back up.
I really don't like doing conventional deadlifts from the floor for reps. How comparable are RDL's? I've been doing them because it seems to help me improve my form, and flexibility on conventionals.
Definitely use a mixed grip when you have to. I find that whenever I lose the deadlift for grip issues, it's because the bar "rolls" backward out of my hand. With the mixed grip, this is no longer possible.
You can get chalk at a variety of places. I got mine from an EMS (Eastern Mountain Sports) near my office. I'm sure REI stocks them as well. Someone here also suggested using plain old blackboard or sidewalk chalk. You don't need a lot of chalk for it to make a big difference.
I also disagree (strongly!) with those who think that you should avoid chalk to train your grip. In my experience, my grip strength has increased substantially since I started using chalk. Before chalk (and the mixed grip), I had trouble holding on to 315 mixed grip because of sweaty palms; now, I can hold on to 365 with a double overhand. Without chalk, I wouldn't even have been able to move to the heavier weights necessary to increase my grip strength.
Also, I find RDLs to be quite different from conventional deadlifts. The hips are a bit higher, and when you do RDLs for reps, you usually (I think) don't let the bar rest on the ground, as you should with a conventional deadlift. This doesn't mean they're not a good exercise, though, or that they won't help your conventional deadlifts. It just means that it's not a perfect replacement.
I also disagree (strongly!) with those who think that you should avoid chalk to train your grip. In my experience, my grip strength has increased substantially since I started using chalk. Before chalk (and the mixed grip), I had trouble holding on to 315 mixed grip because of sweaty palms; now, I can hold on to 365 with a double overhand. Without chalk, I wouldn't even have been able to move to the heavier weights necessary to increase my grip strength.
I agree with this. I started to use chalk last year.
That said though, before spending the money on it, be sure it's not forbidden at your gym. You don't want your membership revoked.
__________________ The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same. -- Carlos Castaneda
I follow a pretty simple method for grip. First, use overhand as long as possible. When it starts to fail I switch to mixed. Currently I can carry mixed up into the low 400s. When that fails I go back to overhand with straps. My grip has continued to get stronger this way and I'm never limited during my DL workouts.
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Well, I've been able to do 255 for ten reps, and 275 for 6 reps on RDL's. But, the form really started to suffer. So, I'm going back to 6 reps of 255lbs. and that seems to be better. Even though I can do more, I'd rather get quality reps. I will do my next Deadlift session with reps from the floor. I'll see how much that changes things. I don't suspect that it will be much of a change. The concentric portion of the lift doesn't exhaust me as much as the eccentrics on RDL's. But, of course I'm now covering a larger ROM, so we'll see.
I haven't tried to do a new 1RM. I'm not sleeping well and really don't think that it would be a good idea. Still, the increased ability to do the rep work should have netted some strength gains. We'll see once I'm ready to give it a go.
I had an idea of doing a group of singles at or above 90%, but my primary goal is still fat loss so I think it would be wise for me to wait until I'm not in such a calorie deficit to do so.
Well, tonight I did my sets from the floor. I did 4x6 at 255lbs. I feel wiped! I feel more exhausted, but the technique was far better than with my RDL's. Since it's just the concentric portion I was able to get the reps in faster and with much better form. But, I may actually die while itmdsla;j/l................... ......
lots of times, the inability to get 6 reps w/ 85% is mostly conditioning. I wouldn't think of starting a workout with this percentage, but rather be working up to it over the weeks, with this being my heaviest day after 3 consecutive heavier weeks (linear).
Of course, percentages are pretty stupid, because everyone is different and having a set percentage to do is just asking for trouble. Just use them as a guideline.
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Intensity on Deadlifts?
Linear Mode
