What are your thoughts on Unstable Weight Training?
I see this used a lot by the trainers at the gym I go to and was wondering what people here thought about it. I guess it's used to strengthen the core and for balance but is it really better than more traditional exercises. IE squat on the bosu ball or regular squat in the squatting cage.
I considering hiring a trainer to spice up my workout but I want to know I'm not doing something just because it might be the latest fad - know what I mean.
nevermind, I did a search and got the impressions it's a fad technique unless used for rehab. I'll use the physio ball for crunches etc and a couple of exercises but wouldn't want my whole workout based around them - I like lifting heavy makes me feel strong
I'm doing bosu squats now in PT, and it sucks… I *wish* I could do it holding 2dbs, one overhead other down by side… but if I could do that, I wouldn't need the bosu.
Regular instability training could put you in nice position once bosu jai alai hits the big time in sports.
Some people see it as a low-probability, high-risk endeavor, but sometimes you gotta take a chance in the pursuit of awesomeness. I mean, at 1am there will probably be a guy getting national coverage on ESPN in a log-rolling lumberjack competition. So if you're really good at wobble-board curls, go with it.
At least you already understand that although it's a cool skill, it won't make you good at anything else.
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Well actually - some seated instablility work would probably be benifical to me since I love to whitewater kayak and that is one of the most instable environments around, might help me train to stay upright in a rapid more offen . But I wouldn't want to put my whole workout into it. I just don't get way that such a big component of the trainers workout at the gym.
yes, but would the "unstable" training that you'd try to mimic in the weight room come even close to what you experience in the water?
you'd be better off doing planks planks and more plank variations, as well as movements seated on a bench or a swiss ball (for the simple purpose of not having any support on your back to replicate the kayak)
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Well actually - some seated instablility work would probably be benifical to me since I love to whitewater kayak and that is one of the most instable environments around, might help me train to stay upright in a rapid more offen . But I wouldn't want to put my whole workout into it. I just don't get way that such a big component of the trainers workout at the gym.
while doing work on an unstable surface your not going to be able to use very much force. For instance if you do a seated overhead DB press while sitting on an exercise ball, you only going to be able to produce a fraction of the force against the dumbell then if you where seated, or better yet, standing. The amount of work your shoulders/arms/pressing muscle are going to get while seated on the ball is going to be so low that it is hardly going to have any training effect on those muscles.
Yes, that movement may train your abs/low back/core more then a traditional seated press, but I would argue that you can have a better training effect using different movements that dont require unstable surfaces.
Also, sport specific training is something you should progress into. For whatever reason in north america we are always focused on sport specific training in the weight room very early in a training career. gpp (general) before spp (special) should be focused on first. In the case of a kayaker I would say gpp could be basics like squats, deads, rows, pullups, etc are your best bet.
Thanks for the insight. I really was just thinking out loud as to why I would consider unstable weight training.
I've been working out at the gym regularly for 1.5 years so I have a pretty good general fitness but do want to spice things up - and add some more exercises in that are sport specific to help with weaknesses. for example core/shoulder/balance, that's why I was considering a trainer but if they are going to push unstable weight training I want to have my arguements against it.
Any suggestions on shoulder exercises to protect my rotator cuff?
I also would skip the unstable weight training (IMHO different than balance training and different than rehab balance training). Use the gym to build strength and endurance in the muscles. Given that you'll be doing a lot of paddling I would be sticking mostly with single arm variations of the big exercises.
For rotator cuff protection google 'shoulder prehab' and check out what comes up.
At the end of the day no matter how much you do in the gym, nothing will prepare you for kayaking as much as kayaking will. Go to the pool/lake/whatever and practice your roll technique, paddling technique, etc...
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I actually use many unstable exercises with my clients. Sure you can't go as heavy, so do them on a light day. Anytime you can creat an unstable surface you are forcing many muscles to engage (core) as well as improve balance and stability. How can that not be a good thing? It's also good just to mix up the routine sometimes.
If your goal is balance or rehab, they may be useful.. I really have no idea. I imagine for something like ankle rehab unstable surfaces could be used successfully. Maybe even if someone has a muscle activation problem, not sure.
Its not a good thing because force production is so limited. If you want to train your 'core', train it hard and heavy (I like suitcase deads, ab pulldowns, hanging leg raises, as well as full squats/deads/rows) and get some noticeable gains.
Maybe saying Good VS Bad is not the right words. More like optimal vs sub-optimal for most cases.
If you look hard enough you will probably find a book or study on how bad squats are for you, or free weights, or strength training in general. Fitness is always evolving. If you want to limit yourself to a few of the old school basics...good luck. Clients WILL plateau, get bored, and quit.
Trainers need to keep it safe, effective, and interesting.
If I have a client who can't stabilize themselves, you bet we will work on that. I have seen great improvements. I do agree some of the methods I've seen are a bit radical but basic stabilization exercises can be very beneficial.
I have seen athletes who can't balance on one leg. Maybe if we would have worked on these defeciencies early on injuries would be fewer and less severe.
But then is UNSTABLE training the answer, rather than simply working on the stability issue? I mean, if you can't stand on one leg, practice standing on one leg… doesn't mean one-legged bosu squats to shoulder presses are the way to fix the deficiency.
If you look hard enough you will probably find a book or study on how bad squats are for you, or free weights, or strength training in general. Fitness is always evolving. If you want to limit yourself to a few of the old school basics...good luck. Clients WILL plateau, get bored, and quit.
Trainers need to keep it safe, effective, and interesting.
If I have a client who can't stabilize themselves, you bet we will work on that. I have seen great improvements. I do agree some of the methods I've seen are a bit radical but basic stabilization exercises can be very beneficial.
I have seen athletes who can't balance on one leg. Maybe if we would have worked on these defeciencies early on injuries would be fewer and less severe.
I don't do this for a living. I coach a few athletes currently, just because I enjoy it. Everything I have them do is strictly based on results. If I was not getting them results, they wouldn't keep using me. When you talk about people quitting due to boredom I assume you are talking about people new to training who are not athletes of any kind, if thats the case I don't know what to say, I don't deal with people like that.
The fact that people have been doing the movements i suggested 30 years ago really doesn't mean anything if you are truly results driven. If I felt that a squat on a bosu ball would help, I would use it, I'm not against stability work its just rare that I see the need for it.
Sticking with the basics is a must in my mind. I don't mean everyone has to back squat or everyone has to deadlift, but the foundation for basic strength, mobility, etc has to be established before moving onto anything more specific. Again, general preparedness before special preparedness.
And just because it seems that a bosu ball would help with balance and self awareness, that may not even be the case at all, you would have to have pretty solid evidence in order for you to convince me of that. Is it the bosu ball correcting these things? or is it added muscle they put on, increased mobility/flexibility? Aoife puts it perfectly..
I think people should try doing some of lifts on leg.
Then we can talk about balanace.
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I've been working out at the gym regularly for 1.5 years so I have a pretty good general fitness but do want to spice things up - and add some more exercises in that are sport specific to help with weaknesses. for example core/shoulder/balance, that's why I was considering a trainer but if they are going to push unstable weight training I want to have my arguements against it.
Why would you want to have an argument against something that you obviously don't understand? You don't even know what it is, hence this thread, and you're already against it?
Unstable weight training isn't about building maximal strength in the unstable position. It's about using the unstable position to recruit the stabilizers. No one I know of is saying to do this kind of work instead of stable training. They are done together.
It has a lot of utility for people that take the time to understand it rather than reject what they don't understand.
Get a NASM certified trainer and they'll set you up with some useful training in this vein.
Can you explain what you mean by 'recruit the stabilizers' and why this cannot be achieved through other forms of lifting? IE single leg work with a DB only in one hand for instance.
Actually, I do understand what it is, I see it done everyday I'm at the gym. And I do use a ball for core work regularly and will play around on a bosu once in awhile. I get that it's said to work the "stabilizing muscles". I just didn't think that doing whole workouts in this vein was benifical, and was asking for that reason. Funny enough when I watch one of the trainers workout for himself he's never using a bosu ball, so hence my question on it's effectiveness.
Seems to me if you're doing a traditional squat you're working all your muscles stabilizing small ones and the big ones to keep your balance as you squat so if I can use more weight this way wouldn't that be more effective overall.
You think it's effective I get it, I think it could have it's value but I don't want to do every exercise or routine in this vein.
Actually, I do understand what it is, I see it done everyday I'm at the gym. And I do use a ball for core work regularly and will play around on a bosu once in awhile. I get that it's said to work the "stabilizing muscles". I just didn't think that doing whole workouts in this vein was benifical, and was asking for that reason. Funny enough when I watch one of the trainers workout for himself he's never using a bosu ball, so hence my question on it's effectiveness.
Seems to me if you're doing a traditional squat you're working all your muscles stabilizing small ones and the big ones to keep your balance as you squat so if I can use more weight this way wouldn't that be more effective overall.
You think it's effective I get it, I think it could have it's value but I don't want to do every exercise or routine in this vein.
You shouldn't be doing whole workouts with unstable weight training nor using it for every exercise.
Naturally you're working stabilizers while doing most any weightlifting, obviously less so on machines. But the prime movers get hit more in the stable version of the lifts than do the stabilizers.
Unstable lifting should have you periodically doing a training cycle where you use a lower amount of weight in specific controlled, unstable lifts to directly stress the stabilizers, not focusing on the prime movers.
In NASM protocols, you would pair a stable lift with an unstable one to maximize prime mover and stabilizer muscle development. This allows you to recruit much more muscle fiber than stable movements alone. Once the cycle is completed, you move on to something else. It's not something that you would want to do all the time nor for every exercise.
But also speaking personally as a trainer, if you tried to hire me then told me that you didn't want to do this kind of training, I would tell you to find another trainer. We have to accept the fact that when we hire a subject matter expert to allow us access to that knowledge, they might ask us to do things with which we are unfamiliar or think we understand when we don't. If this isn't accpetable, why hire them to begin with?
What are your thoughts on Unstable Weight Training?
. But I wouldn't want to put my whole workout into it. I just don't get way that such a big component of the trainers workout at the gym.
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