When you move your arms upward, the scapula needs to follow by rotationg upward, this is to position the glenoid fossa (the place the upper arm bone is "attached") and to make room for the arm to go further up so it doesn't scratch against the acromion, a bone that sticks out from the scapula.
And he is saying that if you use anti-inflammatories you will just mask the problem. Say you get rid of the inflammation with drugs, then keep on training as if nothing had happened. You haven't fixed the underlying problem and you're still scratching the tendons of the rotatorcuff (or really the bursae) so damage is still being done, it's just that now you don't know it because you don't feel it.
I think that's the argument he is making. And I agree, you need to let the scapula move when you do pullups or pulldowns, but you don't really have to let your shoulders shrug all the way up, but letting the scapula rotate to allow the arm to raise is a must IMO.
I think that's the argument he is making. And I agree, you need to let the scapula move when you do pullups or pulldowns, but you don't really have to let your shoulders shrug all the way up, but letting the scapula rotate to allow the arm to raise is a must IMO.
I recall reading an article by Mike Robertson where he recommended retracting the scapula when doing pullups. I've been doing pullups that way - from a hang, begin by pulling the scapula down, and then keep it down until I get to the top, then continue to hold it until I'm back to fully hanging, where I release it.
After watching that video, it seems like I should back off on this and only pull the scapula down only near the top of the pullup movement (when chin is close to bar). Does this sound right?
Well, I don't really see how retraction in it self would lead to greater risk of impingement, the problem comes if you don't rotate the scapula upward. If you stand with your arms down and retract and depress your scapula, they are in a position where, at least for me (I've tried it) my arms can't go all the way up unless I release that a bit. That's just because in that position I can't rotate my scapula upward. If you stand with your arms over your head your scapula will be rotated upwards (it has to, if it doesn't your arms CAN'T go over your head), if you then depress and retract, you won't retract it so far that it rotates downward..
Try to stand with your arms at your side, depress and retract as hard as you can, now hold that while you bring your arms upward, you will get to a point where your arms won't go any further (before they are actually over your head) to go over that point you need to release the tightness a bit so that the scapula can rotate around on the back of the ribs. If you try, you will be able to feel the point where they start to move. This movement must be allowed to occur. Hope that makes sense.. if it doesn't I can try to clarify.
Maybe Julie can come in here and clarify, she probably knows more about this than I do.
how about the shoulder press and any overhead exercises? should the same thing happen with the scap? (keeping the shoulders down and depressed and retracted and then do an overhead exercise like a pull up, shoulder press, lat pulldown, overhead shoulder shrug, etc).
I recall reading an article by Mike Robertson where he recommended retracting the scapula when doing pullups. I've been doing pullups that way - from a hang, begin by pulling the scapula down, and then keep it down until I get to the top, then continue to hold it until I'm back to fully hanging, where I release it.
After watching that video, it seems like I should back off on this and only pull the scapula down only near the top of the pullup movement (when chin is close to bar). Does this sound right?
If I had to choose between taking Mike Robertson's advice on shoulders (assuming I understood it properly) and some random guy on youtube's advice - and they conflicted on how to approach an exercise - I'd go with Robertson.
If I had to choose between taking Mike Robertson's advice on shoulders (assuming I understood it properly) and some random guy on youtube's advice - and they conflicted on how to approach an exercise - I'd go with Robertson.
If you go down to the paragraph talking about "Aren't Lat Pulldowns just as good?", Mike Robertson quotes "If you can't get your chest to the bar and actively depress your scapulae at the top, you aren't ready for chins or pull-ups."
If you go down to the paragraph talking about "Aren't Lat Pulldowns just as good?", Mike Robertson quotes "If you can't get your chest to the bar and actively depress your scapulae at the top, you aren't ready for chins or pull-ups."
Right, and that makes sense - depress scapula near the top of the movement, but allow it to float up near the bottom (when arms are approaching full extension).
Previously, I had started with the full hang, then actively depress my scaps, then begin pulling up. So I'm going to modify it now as follows:
Quote:
Originally Posted by coreJack
After watching that video, it seems like I should back off on this and only pull the scapula down only near the top of the pullup movement (when chin is close to bar). Does this sound right?
Could also be that I'm confusing retraction and depression. What I was doing was hanging, arms fully extended, then pulling with my back so that my head and body would come up maybe an inch or two, but my arms are still fully extended. Is that scapular retraction or depression?
protraction is bringing the shoulders away from you (ex. bench press)
retraction is squeezing the shoulder blades together (ex. seated row)
depression is bringing the shoulders down (ex. lat pulldown/pull up)
elevation is bringing the shoulders up (ex. shrugs)
depression and retraction work together. We always want the shoulders depressed when working out for any exercise except for shrugs. Even during bench press, shoulders should not be shrugged.
protraction is bringing the shoulders away from you (ex. bench press)
retraction is squeezing the shoulder blades together (ex. seated row)
depression is bringing the shoulders down (ex. lat pulldown/pull up)
elevation is bringing the shoulders up (ex. shrugs)
depression and retraction work together. We always want the shoulders depressed when working out for any exercise except for shrugs. Even during bench press, shoulders should not be shrugged.
Thanks. OK, so what I was doing is depression, but I was doing it when my arms were in a full hang, which according to that video results in less space and increased odds of impingement So it sounds like I should modify my pullups so that the depression occurs only near the top of the movement (this actually makes the pullups easier).
When I do pull ups (and even rows and pulldowns), I let my shoulders relax (with control) when my arms are extended like the discriptions say. On rows for example, I start at protraction and then go to retraction and do my row squeezing the shoulder blades, but I never shrug the shoulders because the upper trapz/levator scapula would get worked (they are already overactive and tight, so I don't need to add any muscle to them). Whenever I feel that they are getting worked, I reduce the weight or go to the next exercise. Just like everyday life, we always tell each other "stand up tall and keep shoulders down and depressed...shoulders back, chest up" (talking about posture).
A good example is a crunch. You let go of your belly button when shoulder blades touch the ground and then push your belly button into the floor as hard as you can when going back up to get your rep in.
I bet most people don't have to stress this rotation of the scapula that I'm talking about. For most people it will happen by itself, because the body is "programed" that way, it simply needs to happen, it is impossible to move your arms overhead if you don't let it happen. I think the problems can come if you focus too hard on depressing and retracting the scapulae at the bottom of the movement, because if you keep them very tight you won't allow them to rotate, but you will feel this when you hit the critical point because you won't be able to extend your arms fully overhead.
I'd love to hear Mike Robertson's view on this but I think he'll agree that arm flexion will work in concert with scapula movement if you use a large ROM (I think it's over 30 degrees, or something, the scapula will start to rotate.. but I'm not sure)
I bet most people don't have to stress this rotation of the scapula that I'm talking about. For most people it will happen by itself, because the body is "programed" that way,
Yes, agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karky
it simply needs to happen, it is impossible to move your arms overhead if you don't let it happen.
I don't think this is true. Try this: hang with arms fully extended from a pullup bar; then depress your scapula while keeping your arms fully extended. Then pull yourself up, and when lowering, focus on keeping the scapula depressed as you fully extend your arms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karky
I think the problems can come if you focus too hard on depressing and retracting the scapulae at the bottom of the movement, because if you keep them very tight you won't allow them to rotate, but you will feel this when you hit the critical point because you won't be able to extend your arms fully overhead.
Yes, agreed. I think I may have taken Mike Robertson's suggestion too far.
You can depress the scapula while keeping the arms overhead, I'm talking about rotation. You need to rotate the scapula so that the glenoid fossa (where the humerus articulates) points more upward, this will also move the acromion and the coracnoid processes so the arm is given more room to move. And I think if you focus too much on keeping them depressed and retracted you might not allow them to rotate because you're focusing on keeping them 100% still.
You can depress the scapula while keeping the arms overhead, I'm talking about rotation. You need to rotate the scapula so that the glenoid fossa (where the humerus articulates) points more upward, this will also move the acromion and the coracnoid processes so the arm is given more room to move. And I think if you focus too much on keeping them depressed and retracted you might not allow them to rotate because you're focusing on keeping them 100% still.
Yes, agreed. I only made the point that you can depress your scapula while keeping arms overhead (not that that's a good idea), because I interpreted your comment as saying you could not. But upon rereading it, I see you were referring to rotation.
So I think we're on the same page - only focus on scapular depression near the top of the movement.
why not depress it at once? I think it's OK to depress it at the start of the movement when your arms are extended, just make sure that on the way down from a pullup, you don't focus so much on keeping them down that you don't let them rotate.. But anyways, if you start with the shoulder blades in a more neutral position instead of a depressed one, I can't imagine it making THAT much of a difference..
why not depress it at once? I think it's OK to depress it at the start of the movement when your arms are extended, just make sure that on the way down from a pullup, you don't focus so much on keeping them down that you don't let them rotate.
That seems like a good compromise, and provides more scap depression work, thanks.
If I had to choose between taking Mike Robertson's advice on shoulders (assuming I understood it properly) and some random guy on youtube's advice - and they conflicted on how to approach an exercise - I'd go with Robertson.
Actually that video is by Paul Zaichik. For the bodyweight/martial arts exercise crowd.
They have both gotten their experience by working with lots of people.
There is no conflict. They both agree on full extension (allowing the scaps to rotate upward) at the bottom instead of maintaining that hold the shoulders down thing. I think he is simply correcting what he sees as bad advice from certain trainers out there.
I for one agree. The serratus and other upward rotators should be going through their paces at that point of the movement.
Video-Rotator Cuff in danger with Lat Pulls or Pull UP?
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