Sorry... I've asked this before but I thought I'd try it again.
Okay, the conventional wisdom is to not work the same muscle groups too frequently, how much is "too much" varies on a number of factors. However, I know of no one who recommends working that same group every day except for a Pavel article I read about chin-ups and doing what he terms "greasing the groove."
So, my question then and again now has to do with when I was much younger and worked for a moving company for a summer job. I couldn't go out and say, "Sorry, Mrs. Jones, I can't move your hide-a-bed today. I've already done hide-a-beds this week." [img]tongue.gif[/img] I went back to school after my summer job and people would ask me if I'd been working out and I said, "yeah, I lifted pianos all summer."
I was lifting heavy loads - similar loads - every day, 5 -6 days a week, throughout the summer and I had a hell of a time recovering the first week or so but then later acclimated to the workload, got much stronger and still had the energy to party like crazy at night. So, why not do that in the weight room (sans the party part!)?
From what I can tell, many oly lifters lift this way. They spread their weekly volume out over the entire week. So, they workout six times a week, but only do a few lifts per workout.
I was thinking about this for a while after reading your post. The loads that you were lifting on a daily basis were similar , and it was pretty repetitive lifting. The body can adapt to accomidate demands pretty well because the body is pretty kickass. I would guess that even if you did the lifting for more than the summer, you wouldn't have achieved much more muscle growth than what you had already gotten. The body needed more muscle mass than it had to properly due the job. Thats why lifters and movers aren't totally huge, but they do tend to have a good base of muscle mass. The body can adapt to demands put on it on a daily basis. Its similar to why your calves aren't giant even though you use them pretty much all day everyday. They have achieved the necessary amount of mass needed and have become much more neurologically efficient.
Danny
__________________
Limitations are for people who have them.
Originally posted by DKing: Its similar to why your calves aren't giant even though you use them pretty much all day everyday. They have achieved the necessary amount of mass needed and have become much more neurologically efficient.
Danny
Thanks, Danny! I still think it's an interesting discussion given that we hear so much about not working the same muscle groups twice in a week. Of course, Waterbury promotes hitting the same areas more than once a week. Guess it's a matter of "it's okay to break the rules as long as you know which rules you're breaking" plus the fact that I was your age when I was doing this and could recover pretty fast.
Speaking of calves, have you ever noticed that those guys who carry around A LOT of weight have huge calves!?! I always figured they had to adjust to the load.
I agree, I think its pretty interesting also. I look at a guy like my dad who hasn't lifted weights since his twenties (he is 50 now) and I still can't get close to beating him in arm wrestling. He has worked manuel labor his whole life and is extremely strong because of it.
Have you ever noticed that these people in the manuel labor jobs tend to also have really "dense" muscles. I would guess, and I would love to test this theory sometime, that if we were to take people who have worked in a manual labor job like moving pianos or construction and started them weightlifting that gains in strength would come pretty quick but it would be much harder to get them a signifcant degree of hypertrophy. It seems to me the muscles would be really efficient and it would take an awful lot of training to get growth.
And yeah, fat people always have huge calves!
Danny
__________________
Limitations are for people who have them.
Isn't this the basis of Pavel whatshisname Grease the Groove concept? Do pullups or something similar everyday and you get really good at them?
Oh yeah fat people do have monster calves and the still manage to keep them after they've lost weight. I'm 100lb lighter(still fat though) than I was at one point and I've got monsterous strong calves. I took the standing calf raise machine that maxed at 495 and added rubber coated 45's on the top of it to make it 675lb and still was able to do an easy set of 20 calf raises.
Consider how much volume/intensity can you tolerate in a single training session before performance drops off.
Consider how long would it take you to recover from that session.
When does it become inefficient to spend a specific amount (1 hour, 2 hours, whatever) of time training?
When does split training become more efficient than single training sessions? (or why do beginners typically do full body workouts?)
When is it ideal to do more than one training session per day?
When can training more reduce recovery time?
Name the origin of these quotes...
"To constantly raise the peak of the pyramid you must also widen the base, grasshopper."
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes...it rains."
Bill
Holy Crap Bill, you don't make this stuff easy. This one is going to take some time.
But quick: "Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes...it rains." - Bull Durham said by Ebby Calvin LaLoosh
"To constantly raise the peak of the pyramid you must also widen the base, grasshopper." - That really sounds like something out of Kung Fu with David Carrodine because of the grasshopper but I am not sure. Give me a little bit on the rest of the questions.
Danny
__________________
Limitations are for people who have them.
Okay Bill, here you go. If you want to clear up anything or go into more specifics, let me know. Or if I missed what you were asking let me know, I really want that HARTMAN cert.
Consider how much volume/intensity can you tolerate in a single training session before performance drops off. I tend to be able to handle around 15-20 sets per workout while keeping performance up and properly recovering. This is considering two upper body sessions per week and two lower. It is also assuming that besides the DE or ME exercise all exercises are done in the 5-10 rep range taken till form suffers which is usually a rep or two from failure in the overcoming portion. When I move into higher rep ranges I tend to lose my ability to recover quickly unless loading is really low.
Consider how long would it take you to recover from that session. I can beat or match my previous session with 48-72 hours of recovery. The exercises are different but the muscle groups are similar.
When does it become inefficient to spend a specific amount (1 hour, 2 hours, whatever) of time training? For me, and most people I have seen, exceeding 1.5 hours tends to be too much, although that really depends on the type of lifting and the rest periods. If I am keeping the intensity high and rest periods long, I can push the 1.5 hour barrier but I find that much past that the loading drops and it tends to be hard on my joints, plus recovery sucks.
When does split training become more efficient than single training sessions? (or why do beginners typically do full body workouts?) I don’t think that you can put an exact number on when this would happen. But in general, after 1-3 months of training, the body is going to move more towards muscle gains over learning how to recruit muscle fibers and getting better on the neural end. At this time, protein breakdown should increase and loading will be sufficiently high that performance in later lifts will start to suffer too much. I think this depends a lot of the trainee.
But, there are plenty of benefits to going back to a full body split at least some of the time. Teaching the muscles to fire as a unit, achieving a higher work capacity, and an in season athlete are all good reasons to use a full body workout even for an experienced lifter.
The more I lift, the more I realize that splits aren’t always the most effective training. I upper/lower sessions or some other split involving multiple muscle groups would be much more effective even after a month or two.
When is it ideal to do more than one training session per day? I am assuming that these are different types of training sessions, like weights/energy systems or something similar. In this case, anytime an athlete or trainee is limited in the amount of days they can train or have access to a gym I would recommend more than one session a day. Also for out of season athletes trying to gain strength while keeping agility and sports specific skills up. By this I mean that I think that if not possible to do them on a separate day, I would split up energy system/agility/sports specific work with work done in the weight room by around 8 hours if possible. This will makes sure that there is enough energy to perform in each activity to the highest standard.
If you are talking about two a day training sessions then I would only use them if the trainee has a lot of free time to spend recovering and doesn’t have much stress in life. Someone like a college kid or highschool kid in the summers without a full time job. They should also be bulking or using some type of “assistance”.
Either that or I would follow Charles Poliquins One Day Arm Cure .
When can training more reduce recovery time? Training more can reduce recovery time when you are performing active recovery. Things like higher rep sets on off days to increase blood flow and dynamic and static stretching sessions can all lead to better recovery time. Another way to better increase recovery time through training would be to constantly push the border of overtraining/supercompinsation . By constantly pushing the border and allowing time to supercompinsate and recover you can increase your work capacity and over time reduce recovery time.
Danny
__________________
Limitations are for people who have them.
Danny, I've posted some additional questions within your quote. Just questions . . .
Originally posted by DKing:
Okay Bill, here you go. If you want to clear up anything or go into more specifics, let me know. Or if I missed what you were asking let me know, I really want that HARTMAN cert.
Consider how much volume/intensity can you tolerate in a single training session before performance drops off. I tend to be able to handle around 15-20 sets per workout while keeping performance up and properly recovering. This is considering two upper body sessions per week and two lower. It is also assuming that besides the DE or ME exercise all exercises are done in the 5-10 rep range taken till form suffers which is usually a rep or two from failure in the overcoming portion. When I move into higher rep ranges I tend to lose my ability to recover quickly unless loading is really low.
Consider how long would it take you to recover from that session. I can beat or match my previous session with 48-72 hours of recovery. The exercises are different but the muscle groups are similar.
[JOSH>Do you think you could gradually increase this over years? Maybe by adding one set of a single exercise once per two\three weeks or so?
If you were to increase the volume you could handle this way, could you better handle the higher rep ranges (by keeping number of reps per workout constant)?
When does it become inefficient to spend a specific amount (1 hour, 2 hours, whatever) of time training? For me, and most people I have seen, exceeding 1.5 hours tends to be too much, although that really depends on the type of lifting and the rest periods. If I am keeping the intensity high and rest periods long, I can push the 1.5 hour barrier but I find that much past that the loading drops and it tends to be hard on my joints, plus recovery sucks.
[JOSH>Could you also gradually increase this by adding one or two minutes to your workout per week? What if you are doing less volume over more time (like waiting twenty minutes between reps). At what point does this become multiple workouts (like waiting six hours between two specific reps)?
When does split training become more efficient than single training sessions? (or why do beginners typically do full body workouts?) I don’t think that you can put an exact number on when this would happen. But in general, after 1-3 months of training, the body is going to move more towards muscle gains over learning how to recruit muscle fibers and getting better on the neural end. At this time, protein breakdown should increase and loading will be sufficiently high that performance in later lifts will start to suffer too much. I think this depends a lot of the trainee.
But, there are plenty of benefits to going back to a full body split at least some of the time. Teaching the muscles to fire as a unit, achieving a higher work capacity, and an in season athlete are all good reasons to use a full body workout even for an experienced lifter.
The more I lift, the more I realize that splits aren’t always the most effective training. I upper/lower sessions or some other split involving multiple muscle groups would be much more effective even after a month or two.
[JOSH>Maybe this has to do with the last question; if you can increase your work capacity for a continuous session, you could also increase your work capacity throughout an entire day or week.
When is it ideal to do more than one training session per day? I am assuming that these are different types of training sessions, like weights/energy systems or something similar. In this case, anytime an athlete or trainee is limited in the amount of days they can train or have access to a gym I would recommend more than one session a day. Also for out of season athletes trying to gain strength while keeping agility and sports specific skills up. By this I mean that I think that if not possible to do them on a separate day, I would split up energy system/agility/sports specific work with work done in the weight room by around 8 hours if possible. This will makes sure that there is enough energy to perform in each activity to the highest standard.
If you are talking about two a day training sessions then I would only use them if the trainee has a lot of free time to spend recovering and doesn’t have much stress in life. Someone like a college kid or highschool kid in the summers without a full time job. They should also be bulking or using some type of “assistance”.
Either that or I would follow Charles Poliquins One Day Arm Cure .
[JOSH>Maybe if you're trying to stay at the neural end of things it would make sense to let your muscles recover fully between smaller sessions spread throughout the day. Also, if you're trying to increase recovery as you point out below via active recovery.
When can training more reduce recovery time? Training more can reduce recovery time when you are performing active recovery. Things like higher rep sets on off days to increase blood flow and dynamic and static stretching sessions can all lead to better recovery time. Another way to better increase recovery time through training would be to constantly push the border of overtraining/supercompinsation . By constantly pushing the border and allowing time to supercompinsate and recover you can increase your work capacity and over time reduce recovery time.
Damn, you guys ask really hard questions. Josh, I will do my best to give my best opinion but I can't promise it will be anything but what I think or that its right.
[JOSH>Do you think you could gradually increase this over years? Maybe by adding one set of a single exercise once per two\three weeks or so?
If you were to increase the volume you could handle this way, could you better handle the higher rep ranges (by keeping number of reps per workout constant)?
I am not sure about increasing the amount of sets one can handle. I think to some extent you could but I don't see it as neccessary. For a person who's main goal is weightlifting or muscle growth, adding time to the gym seems pretty un-needed and almost counter productive.
I think that I could increase my ability in the higher rep sets just by slowly working in more higher rep work while keeping the volume down a bit. I am not good in the high rep ranges due to the fact that I rarely train them because I don't like them.
[JOSH>Could you also gradually increase this by adding one or two minutes to your workout per week? What if you are doing less volume over more time (like waiting twenty minutes between reps). At what point does this become multiple workouts (like waiting six hours between two specific reps)?
See above, I think that you could increase your work capacity and draw out workouts, but whats the point? Unless you want to get really good at working out for a long time I don't see it as needed or something to train for.
As for the second question, I think that this is a tactic that a lot of Soviet or Bulgarian (I get all those really kick ass eastern countries wrong.) Combine that with ice massages or some of that vibration stuff, and you are going to get a really really good oly lifter, but most of us can't do that.
[JOSH>Maybe this has to do with the last question; if you can increase your work capacity for a continuous session, you could also increase your work capacity throughout an entire day or week.
Yup, I think it goes back to that. But I do think that there is a large cut-off where it becomes ineffective and un-needed. But that could be your goal.
JOSH>Maybe if you're trying to stay at the neural end of things it would make sense to let your muscles recover fully between smaller sessions spread throughout the day. Also, if you're trying to increase recovery as you point out below via active recovery.
Yup, like the soviets or bulgarians or whatever...
I think a lot of this touches on the earliest part of the post. The guys who do manual labor their whole life have unbelievable work capacities, a lot of these guys can swing a hammer or carry bricks all day but they don't have the huge amount of muscle that a guy who weightlifts for 4 hours a week. But I bet you could get them really strong.
Danny
__________________
Limitations are for people who have them.
All the answers have to do with the relationship between general adaptations and specific adaptations. Rather than shooting for specific answers (like I can train 1.5 hours), think conceptually.
The first two statements were to establish a frame of reference.
The grasshopper comment was a trick question (I can't make it that easy to pass)...I just started working with an 11 year old kid this week who has been doing too much specific work (Dad is hoping to achieve his failed sporting goals through his son) and needs to build a wider base of fitness (hint)...that's what I said to Dad and son to get them to understand how sonny should be training.
Outstanding answer to the Bull Durham question!! It shows excellent taste in movies (even though Kevin Costner was in it).
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