Are there any generally accepted ideas, articles, studies or references on fat burning and cardio or is this just a subject of too much controversy for people to generally agree? I am looking around this site and the web for my and not being succesful on finding articles that do no conflict somewhat. I fear this is sort of like the whole squat debate and that I will have to go through another long series of questions to really get what I think is right amongst all the opinions.
Specifically I am looking for answer to the following?
At what point in a cardio routine does a person go from fat burning to LBM burning?
I am reasonably familar with the heart rate zone concepts and how they work as far as burning fat versus carbs but I don't get them to this detail.
I am asking this question because at the gym where I train the head trainer talks like he knows this definitively to his clients telling them that if they work out at Borg PRE scale of somewhat hard or hard (I think this translates to HR 140-160) that they are burning LBM. I don't agree with him in my gut but I cannot really point to any definitive source and am finding that many of the sources conflict with one another.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Are there any generally accepted ideas, articles, studies or references on fat burning and cardio or is this just a subject of too much controversy for people to generally agree? I am looking around this site and the web for my and not being succesful on finding articles that do no conflict somewhat. I fear this is sort of like the whole squat debate and that I will have to go through another long series of questions to really get what I think is right amongst all the opinions.
Hi Karla,
IMO, here are the best articles you're gonna get on this subject (pardon me for including my own):
Specifically I am looking for answer to the following?
At what point in a cardio routine does a person go from fat burning to LBM burning?
Regarding your bolded question, it really all depends on the nature of the fed status of the trainee, but more importantly, the diet as a whole. The most useful answer I can give you is that you generally don't have to worry about muscle protein loss resulting from intense cardio unless your overall protein and calorie intake is insufficient. If you train fasted, or if there are no exogenous substrates (ingested fuels such as protein or protein & carbs) being absorbed into circulation during training, a loss of muscle protein can occur to varying degrees depending on the intensity and/or duration of the training bout. But keep in mind that this can be a temporary condition reversible by feeding. Overall, I'll caution you against overthinking this and arguing with ignorant folks...
The rest of the stuff I'll mention really isn't that important but might give you more food for thought. Muscle protein loss is measurable by various indexes including elevations creatine kinase levels and/or 3-methyhistidine levels. Muscle protein loss can more directly be measured by arterioveinous amino acid balance, and even more directly through needle biopsy. Another thing to throw in here is that when you speak of LBM loss, there is nonessential (water, glycogen, etc) & essential LBM (the protein components). The net loss of essential LBM is a bit more of a long-term process as a result of insufficient dietary factors, whereas nonessential LBM loss is either a neutral or bad thing depending on the goal of the trainee. Unfortunately, none of this stuff has been systematically investigated to the degree that would satisfy your question, Karla.
seems like there are several questions:
1) at what point (if ever) is LBM (essential) burned for energy during a workout and is there a non-invasive way to know if LBM is converting to glucose compared to native glucose being burned
2) assuming #1 occurs, at what point is this detrimental to overall LBM as compared to a temporary loss replaced at the next meal
3) at what point does long term endurance training result in the dropping of weight and loss of LBM that is associated with elite athletes in endurance sports
Unless you are performing extreme aerobic work you will not burn muscle per se. The problem with aerobic work relative to size and strength, and this is irrespective of caloric intake, is that it and resistance training essentially elicit the opposite adaptation by the skeletal musculature. So, to optimize results from either form of training requires the exclusion of the other. You can do both and achieve good results, so it all comes down to Jack of all trades, master of none and what you want from your training.
Alan, you talk about it being a somewhat transient thing that can be overcome by eating ... is that also true that if you are resistance training, the small effects of muscle loss that might occur with cardio are reversed with adequate resistance work? (For someone not looking to gain, in other words, just looking to avoid losing LBM while dieting.)
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There is a lot to consider in a situation like this.
First off, what most people don't realize is the LBM (lean body mass) doesn't just mean muscle. Loss of LBM and Atrophy are two different things. Yes, connected, but two different things. When studies and people measure body fat decreases and try to calculate percentage of muscle lost they fail to often take into account glycogen and water. Both are LBM.
Being someone who has had to purposely decrease muscle mass in female trainee (ie those who it should be easy as possible) I can assure you that it isn't a walk in the park. The easiest way to do it is by NOT training. You are going to see atropy from immobolization at a much faster rate than in training, even when crossing over into high stress oxidative states.
If you take a person of average training, average diet, suitable resting and feeding breaks, these questions really aren't that relevant beyond that of just fun discussion. Where it changes is when people start to do stupid shit and to some degree endurance athletes. It doesn't have to be, but they usually do a lot of stupid shit nutrition wise, hince where the problem comes in.
People don't kill muscle from cardio, they kill muscle from cardio and not eating enough.
Question: When do we see the worst atrophy situations occur?
-Overtraining
-Undereating
-Immoblization
The small and minor erasing of muscle in a deficit can easily be made up for in the break period with correctly timed training to support it.
The only people who end up "fat skinny" from training are those who never trained in the first place and expect the fat to melt off into buff. It doesn't matter how good the training program is, there had to be a base there in the first place. If not then after you free the fat, move in to a slow bulking situation, move into a hypertrophy stage, and then bounce around as need for the long term to increase muscle, decrease fat as needed. Newbie effect will only get most people so far.
End note: Loss of LBM with training has become far to "Bro-speak" and isn't nearly a worry as most make it to be.
Alan's link to his articles as well as Lyle's should provide more than enough material for anyone trying to understand the effects of cardio wrt diet/training/nutrition. also, Leigh's post....spot on...nice!
There is a lot to consider in a situation like this.
First off, what most people don't realize is the LBM (lean body mass) doesn't just mean muscle. Loss of LBM and Atrophy are two different things. Yes, connected, but two different things. When studies and people measure body fat decreases and try to calculate percentage of muscle lost they fail to often take into account glycogen and water. Both are LBM.
Being someone who has had to purposely decrease muscle mass in female trainee (ie those who it should be easy as possible) I can assure you that it isn't a walk in the park. The easiest way to do it is by NOT training. You are going to see atropy from immobolization at a much faster rate than in training, even when crossing over into high stress oxidative states.
If you take a person of average training, average diet, suitable resting and feeding breaks, these questions really aren't that relevant beyond that of just fun discussion. Where it changes is when people start to do stupid shit and to some degree endurance athletes. It doesn't have to be, but they usually do a lot of stupid shit nutrition wise, hince where the problem comes in.
People don't kill muscle from cardio, they kill muscle from cardio and not eating enough.
Question: When do we see the worst atrophy situations occur?
-Overtraining
-Undereating
-Immoblization
The small and minor erasing of muscle in a deficit can easily be made up for in the break period with correctly timed training to support it.
The only people who end up "fat skinny" from training are those who never trained in the first place and expect the fat to melt off into buff. It doesn't matter how good the training program is, there had to be a base there in the first place. If not then after you free the fat, move in to a slow bulking situation, move into a hypertrophy stage, and then bounce around as need for the long term to increase muscle, decrease fat as needed. Newbie effect will only get most people so far.
End note: Loss of LBM with training has become far to "Bro-speak" and isn't nearly a worry as most make it to be.
As usual, you state things in such a way that all can "get it" ... you remain teh awsumness!!
__________________
Life's a Journey ... Enjoy the Ride!
IMO, here are the best articles you're gonna get on this subject (pardon me for including my own)...
Overall, I'll caution you against overthinking this and arguing with ignorant folks...
Dang now I feel really stoopid! I looked for valid research and failed to check with Mr. Science-based Research.
I have read your articles before so I knew that my gut was telling me he was wrong. I just could not remember where that source was coming from and did not think to look at your site or Lyle's for that matter either. Dooop. There is so much mis-information out there that I got caught up in it is my only excuse.
LOL on the warning! I won't get into arguments and will try to not over think this but want to be careful that I don't follow the ignorant off the cliff at the very least... I think I can figure out how to move forward with this now... Sigh, so much to learn here.
Thanks for popping in here and helping out!
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Alan's link to his articles as well as Lyle's should provide more than enough material for anyone trying to understand the effects of cardio wrt diet/training/nutrition. also, Leigh's post....spot on...nice!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesbd
Great resources and fantastic post Leigh. I am going to bookmark this to share with people who are bro challenged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UConnJulie
As usual, you state things in such a way that all can "get it" ... you remain teh awsumness!!
X3. Leigh, so much appreciation for your post too. I love it when you weigh in on these matters. You break shit down in the simplest and most straight forward way and in this case confirmed what Alan is saying too. You guys are the best! Looking forward to watching both of you in action in May. I feel like, with you guys as a support team, I might actually emerge as a decent fitness pro despite the bodybuilding waters I swim in here in Portland.
-Karla (bro-challenged but open...)
__________________
The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Alan, you talk about it being a somewhat transient thing that can be overcome by eating ... is that also true that if you are resistance training, the small effects of muscle loss that might occur with cardio are reversed with adequate resistance work? (For someone not looking to gain, in other words, just looking to avoid losing LBM while dieting.)
Yes, but only if sufficient protein consumed, and the caloric deficit isn't too severe or prolonged without breaks or refeeds. Strength training will mitigate muscle loss, but it's not a 100% safeguard in the absence of enough raw material to build with.
The definitive articles on fat burning and cardio
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