So you wanna be a badass, huh? You wanna strut around on the streets and tempt someone to cross your path. After all, that’s what learning to fight is all about – being able to beat the livin’ tar out of people, right? Wrong! And the highly trained staff at Target-Focus Training (TFT) will be the first ones to tell you. In fact, the founder of TFT, Tim Larkin, was quick to state the following: “Violence is rarely the answer. When it is the answer, it’s the only answer.” So all you wannabe thugs need not apply.
After hearing numerous comments and praise about TFT, I decided to look into it. So I sent the guys at TFT a few emails and then decided to give the course a try. I can honestly state that it was the most productive and informative fighting seminar I have ever attended (and I’ve been to quite a few). What was so great about it you ask? Read on.
TFT is not based on martial arts, although one can see martial art movements. TFT is not based solely on street fighting either, even though there are numerous street-fighting influences. In fact, TFT stands in a category by itself because you can’t categorize it! Therefore, anyone can take the class because no prior experience in any martial art discipline is required. In fact, it might be easier if you don’t have any. I have studied various forms of martial arts over the last ten years. Therefore, I have many “automatic” habits built-into my nervous system. For instance, when someone throws a punch at me I immediately step back into a stance and attempt to block the blow. The problem with stepping back and blocking a blow is that it doesn’t get you any closer to defeating your attacker, it just gives him/her another chance to throw another punch or kick. Well, the staff at TFT trains you to step forward and strike, thus becoming the Cause (more on Cause/Effect later).
The TFT system is designed to teach anyone how to survive a personal, life-threatening situation. That is why the staff is so adamant about teaching people to “walk away” from social confrontations. Put simply, you will develop the tools to permanently disable a person or persons. This system is not something you want to mess around with!
So allow me to tell you a little bit about my experience. I arrived at the seminar at 8 AM on a Friday morning in sunny Las Vegas. There were about twenty people in attendance and everything seemed pretty quiet and relaxed. After everyone arrived, Tim Larkin stood up and spoke about his experiences and what led him to design the TFT system. His background is extremely impressive, this is a guy who definitely “Talks the talk and walks the walk!” But Tim immediately makes you feel at ease, no pretensions with him or his staff whatsoever.
When the introduction was over, we immediately starting working on techniques with other participants. No messing around at this seminar, they let you get right to the good stuff! We started out with a few simple techniques and practiced them until the staff felt the class had a good handle on the technique before moving onto the next lesson. Generally, about ten minutes was spent on each technique. Now, you might be thinking that ten minutes is not a very long time to learn a technique and have it engraved into your nervous system. But that’s the beauty of this method; it builds on itself. Even though a short amount of time might be spent on the first technique, the second technique is usually a continuation of the first. It’s kind of like reading a 30 chapter book, the chapters might be somewhat different but they all build on themselves. The same is true with this method. So at the end of the two and a half days you will have repeated the techniques hundreds of times.
One of the most important principles of the TFT system are the Cause and Effect states. The staff really does a great job engraving this into your brain. You must be the Cause! If you are the Effect, then your attacker is the Cause and you are in trouble. Let me give you an example that is similar to my previous example. If an attacker jumps out in front of me on the street and lunges at me with a knife, I could do one of two things. I could immediately step back and try to block the stab (as taught in martial arts). This choice would exemplify being the Effect. The attacker is the Cause, and I step back and block (becoming the Effect). On the other hand, I could step forward and strike the forearm or shoulder of the attacker’s arm, thus being the Cause. Which state would you rather be in a life-threatening fight, the Cause or the Effect. If you are smart, you would answer “Cause”! When you are the Cause, you are in control of the situation. When you are the Effect, someone else is controlling you. That is what this system is based on, teaching you to be the Cause in any physical confrontation.
Friday and Saturday were both ten-hour days with an hour for lunch. I can promise you one thing, you will be sore from this seminar. I was very sore and stiff after the first ten-hour day (which I loved). Tim and the staff encourage and demand the participants to throw and hit each other. In fact, a good portion of Saturday’s seminar was spent practicing techniques outside on the ground and concrete! Don’t worry, it’s all very controlled and the staff members are constantly monitoring the participants. If you don’t learn how it feels to be hit, then you will never be successful in a real-world confrontation. Therefore, relish in the soreness because it is helping to make you a strong and experienced fighter!
Sunday was a partial day (4 hours) and we fought using knife and gun attacks. I’ll tell you what, that day proved to me how effective this system really is. I assumed we would have to learn all new techniques to fight in these situations. Boy was I wrong. Nothing changed from the prior two days. In other words, the TFT techniques are effective whether your attacker is holding a pipe or nothing at all. Similarly, my attack techniques were the same whether the other guy was holding a stick, pipe or nothing! Now that’s why I consider this one of the most effective systems – the techniques are the same whether there are weapons involved or not.
I can’t even begin to explain everything I learned in the TFT seminar. You must experience it for yourself. But for me, one lesson stood above all else. I learned to overcome my inhibitions about striking someone in a “sensitive area” (i.e., nose, throat, groin, eyes). Even with my years of experience as a bouncer, in every type of bar imaginable, I was still hesitant about striking someone in those areas. Not anymore! And I have the staff of TFT to thank.
On the plane ride home from the seminar I felt more confident than I ever have. I spent 24 hours doing the most effective fighting techniques I ever witnessed. If you are the least being interested in learning to survive in a life-threatening situation (I sure hope you are) then do yourself a favor and sign up for this class. It will be the best money you ever spent. After all, what price could you possibly put on your own life?
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At JP's retreat this year many of us took a Hagana (sp)class. It sounds very similiar to what Chad described but Hagana is more in depth (6 week course I believe). The guy who taught JP's class was awesome. He was 145 lbs soaking wet and I'd put him against anybody.
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Past performance is not indicative of future success.
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
If you don’t learn how it feels to be hit, then you will never be successful in a real-world confrontation.
Ain't that the truth! That is the reason I think no contact point tournaments/sparring are a total waste of time. I've seen alot of guys with flashy techniques curl up in a ball the first time they really get hit. MMA has shed alotta light on what actually works (not all works on the street of course).
The target-focus system appears to have a similar foundation as Jeet Kune Do or some Filipino systems that employ identical techniqies for armed/unarmed assailants.
Good thread.
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Great post. I have been following this type of training for quite sometime, we had some practitioners in the Tampa area. It is always good to have the confidence to know but the foresight to walk away. Goes against my Marine mentality but not everyone deserves a whupping, just the ego-driven!
Kuri..I've searched for stuff around the 2005 retreat and I can't find the thread or the proper spelling to even google it that better explains it. If JP ever catches up on the thread he should be able to shed some light.
The instructors name was Gordon.
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Past performance is not indicative of future success.
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Hagana is based on a style of fighting called "Crav Maga" which was created by Israeli special forces. It is a close contact hand-to-hand combat. They use a lot of really effective submission techniques, knife and gun disarms, and Gordon will also teach the student how to immediately assess the level of danger of the attack to determine whether you want to subdue, disable or terminate your opponent. It is a very pure fighting form. He reinforces technique with tons of coordination drills. Another thing they do that I like is that it doesn't try to teach you right and left handed attacks/defenses. Instead you adapt your dominant side to any attack whether it is coming at you right or left handed.
You will never kick above the knee or IT band, you will never punch a face with your knuckles (the magic triangle below the jawline on your neck though is a prime target). It is a brutal and no-nonsense style of fighting. Maybe I can get Gordon on here to give a better description of it.
Ah, Krav Maga - gotcha. Yeah that is a very effective system for self defense from what I hear. The Natl. training center is a few blocks away. Someday I'll have to check it out.
Not using high kicks or closed fist punches is a good idea. Theres a reason most guys break their hands in a fight. More reasons I think alot of those McKarate or McTaekwondo schools are doing a disservice to their students in teaching them techniques that 1. are flashy but ineffective and 2. can get them hurt in a real life situation.
What's your experience with Hagana JP?
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Maybe I am just a skeptic, but several things stick out. First, in just 20 hours,with no prior training, he is going to teach you to be proficient in violent attacks, including knives and guns. Second, Tim Larkin is a close associate of Matt Furey. That casts some doubt on his character. Third, the chances of the average person dying from a random act of violence are very small. Most people are killed by people they know. Your chances of dying from a heart attack, getting killed by a drunk driver or being run over by someone driving and talking on their cell phone are much higher. So, they want you to spend $2000.00 to prepare you for something that has a statistically low chance of ever occuring.
I just don't think anyone can prepare thereselves for every instance. There are just too many variables. The best thing is to use common sense and stay away from these potential situations.
$2000 is more than I would be willing to spend for a weekend siminar like that, but I think that type of training is usefull. I agree that you cannot predict every variable of every situation, but there is nothing wrong with learning techniques and being prepared. Its like telling a football player not to pratice because he will never simulate every game situation. I think something like this is half understanding and being able to perform the techniques and half being comfortable with the type of situation and not pissing on yourself. I also think there is more valu than just saving yourself in a life threatening situation. I pratice and play volleyball, not because it reduces my chances for death, but because I ENJOY it, and I want to get better at it.
I really enjoyed the "mini-seminar" Gordon gave us on Hagana at JP's 2005 retreat. With a good local teacher, it is something I could really get into.
Originally posted by nanook: Maybe I am just a skeptic, but several things stick out. First, in just 20 hours,with no prior training, he is going to teach you to be proficient in violent attacks, including knives and guns. Second, Tim Larkin is a close associate of Matt Furey. That casts some doubt on his character. Third, the chances of the average person dying from a random act of violence are very small. Most people are killed by people they know. Your chances of dying from a heart attack, getting killed by a drunk driver or being run over by someone driving and talking on their cell phone are much higher. So, they want you to spend $2000.00 to prepare you for something that has a statistically low chance of ever occuring.
I just don't think anyone can prepare themselves for every instance. There are just too many variables. The best thing is to use common sense and stay away from these potential situations.
Follow up practice is also an important issue. Techniques need to become a habitual response. That doesn't happen with a single training event, no more than does spending $2,000 on a hooker in Vagas make you a permanent ladies man. In a fight or flight situation, one usually regresses to one reaction/technique, and likely the one that is the most habitual action. At least the TFT system sounds like it builds on this habitual response pattern by building techniques off of a common base.
However, if you attend a one-shot seminar and don't actually make it a point to review and practice later on (and probably needing a partner), then it could be a bunch of money wasted. Yes, it might be better than no training at all. However, when I do self-defense seminars (often free; stupid me, I guess), I make it a point to note that it is not at all a replacement for engaging in regular training, if that is a concern for people. If one is truly concerned about their safety, they might better spend $2,000 on TWO YEARS of martial arts practice in their home town (at a quality school -- such as mine [img]smile.gif[/img] -- of course).
I agree with Chris- it takes a certain amount of time and consistant practice to develop a solid base of knowledge and to physiologically adapt to the skills learned. In order for techniques to work in a real situation they must be damn close to automatic responses, or at least your mind must be trained to handle the pressure to react properly.
At least for me it took awhile, perhaps a year, to really develop the ability to react in a rationale and appropriate manner when under pressure of an attacker coming at full speed.
Speaking of... Pride Fighting PPV is starting, so if you'll excuse me!
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Haha "Hagana".... I bet if I heard you guys pronounce that I'd be rolling on the floor in no time
Quote:
Originally posted by kuri: Ah, Krav Maga - gotcha. Yeah that is a very effective system for self defense from what I hear. The Natl. training center is a few blocks away. Someday I'll have to check it out.
Not using high kicks or closed fist punches is a good idea. Theres a reason most guys break their hands in a fight. More reasons I think alot of those McKarate or McTaekwondo schools are doing a disservice to their students in teaching them techniques that 1. are flashy but ineffective and 2. can get them hurt in a real life situation.
What's your experience with Hagana JP?
Most guys break their hands in fights because they are either idiots or don't know how to punch. Or a the deadly combination of both.
I guess I can sort of understand what you mean by "McTaekwondo" but refering to Taekwondo as a martial art aimed at self defence or random street fights is ridiculous.
Krav Maga (or "contact fight".. ahh sounds better in Hebrew ;/) was designed for self defence or knocking your opponent down / severly wounding him, and though those guys do compete, it's not really a sport. Taekwondo is completely different. It has a certain set of rules according to which technique is taught, with the primary goal of teaching one how to defeat an opponent who also follows the rules dictated by the federation under which they are competing.
Trying to kick someone in the head in a street fight would be ridiculous because by the time you get your knee up your other one will be broken. In Taekwondo it works perfectly when timed correctly. In the streets? Rarely.
I trained seriously from the age of 8 till about 14 or 15(Taekwondo), and a friend of mine started training at Kyokushin (SPELL ?#?@@#^@) a while after I started my own training. I was stronger, faster, and more flexible than him, while at the same weight, and yet he would whoop my ass anyday. Why? Because I didn't know how to throw a punch(and no Pomsae doesn't count). Because I was never taught to kick with my shin in the leg (which by the way hurts like hell whenever I try it, and hurts even worse whenever tried on me... yey.), but hey, I sure could win Tkd tourneys!
The point I'm trying to make is that it's very important to understand the difference between a fighting style used in competition and one used for street fighting.
Thank you.
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Just for the record, my instructor works his Hagana in with his kickboxing classes for free. Not your typical "billy-blanks-step-aerobics-cardio-kickboxing" routine to say the least.
I haven't spent a lot of time in his classes, but I took to some of the training really well from having had years as a freestyle wrestler from about the 3rd grade till high school. I took years of TDK as well, and I never used a lick of it when in real fight situations. On the other hand, every fight I've been in went to the ground, and I will give you one guess who came out on top.
I was not aware of the $2000 price tag on the seminar. I guess I'm just spoiled. Gordon does have a 3rd degree blackbelt, BTW.
Chris's description really hit the nail on the head though. The reason wrestling was so effective was because of the constant drilling we did to build automatic habits, like reversal drills, spin drills, take down drills, etc. I don't have to think when someone comes at me... It's like my body goes into autopilot. It hasn't failed me yet. That is why I think Hagana works. It is based on constant coordination drills to make certain decisive defense moves automatic.
Also, by being exposed to things like guns, knives, etc, if you have been drilled to think of multiple scenarios of proper response, you aren't panicking but working out how to disarm. If you have been desensitized to guns then you won't wilt when you see on in real life. I have never been in that situation (thank god). But if someone did attack me and I successfully "de-meated" his finger (as they call it in class - ewww) you gotta admit that it would be pretty cool to have put down an attacker like that.
Also, by being exposed to things like guns, knives, etc, if you have been drilled to think of multiple scenarios of proper response, you aren't panicking but working out how to disarm. If you have been desensitized to guns then you won't wilt when you see on in real life.
JP,
How do you get desensitized to guns? I assume during training, no one is really afraid that they will be shot. So, if you know your assailant(sp) is using a fake gun during training, how does that give you confidence if the gun is real and it could really kill you?
More confidence than no practice! But, again, it is partly, or largely, the habit of performing an action with the gun there.
I know a master instructor who has practiced gun self defense with a gun with blanks, with a paint ball gun, and with a bb gun. As he put it, "When you screw up, it really hurts."
Although it is not loaded, Gordon does use a real gun... A 45 automatic with stiff action. Granted it does not put you in a real life situation, but most people have so much anxiety even seeing and holding a real gun that it gives them a chance to get used to being around it. You are right though, so far no one has been shot in class. Maybe we should add that for the extra element of reality!
One note coming from someone with a lot of weapons training. If the guy holding it, knows how to use it, you better run... I don't care how you have been trained or who trained you.
Originally posted by Newlife: One note coming from someone with a lot of weapons training. If the guy holding it, knows how to use it, you better run... I don't care how you have been trained or who trained you.
Well, heck, that's a given, at least, that's what I teach. However, if you can't run, or feel running would be futile . . . ya' gotta give it your best shot. I sure hope I never have to deal with such a confrontation.
I think your point, Newlife, is that someone trained/skilled with a weapon (or even perhaps someone untrained) can be very dangerous, and training in self defense against an armed opponent can lull one into an overrated sense of ability. I agree. I also teach that if they have a knife or gun, you will likely get cut or shot; but maybe if you pull off a proper response, you can live to tell about it.
One thing to point out about Hagana training is that they actually teach their students how to use psychology words and body language to reduce stress factors off the assailant. Someone pulling a gun is really on a rush, and saying certain key words and taking certain postures can help to get them to drop their guard a little, hopefully presenting you with an opportunity to put your training to good use.
That doesn't mean that they teach you to seek out danger of course. The first rule is that if you can run and get to safety, do it. This is for when you really don't have options. I really need to get Gordon in this discussion.
Originally posted by Jean-Paul: One thing to point out about Hagana training is that they actually teach their students how to use psychology words and body language to reduce stress factors off the assailant. Someone pulling a gun is really on a rush, and saying certain key words and taking certain postures can help to get them to drop their guard a little, hopefully presenting you with an opportunity to put your training to good use.
That doesn't mean that they teach you to seek out danger of course. The first rule is that if you can run and get to safety, do it. This is for when you really don't have options. I really need to get Gordon in this discussion.
Hmmm. The psychology and verbal cues is an interesting area. I don't teach that in any great detail, or teach anything that is definitely empiricallly based. I'm a bit curious to explore more of that. I tend to think saying, "OH! Don't hurt me!" is good, and somewhat disarming. But maybe I'm wrong.
SNIP
TFT is not based on martial arts, ... I have studied various forms of martial arts over the last ten years. Therefore, I have many “automatic” habits built-into my nervous system. For instance, when someone throws a punch at me I immediately step back into a stance and attempt to block the blow.
SNIP
This gave me a double take: he has studied various martial arts for he has a block and step back reaction in muscle memory.
• I wonder what one dimensional martial art he studied?
Perhaps more importantly- how long or degree of proficiency
Chris (TKD Chris) comment on TKD hard wiring you into block and step back?
Kuri (I KNOW you did martial arts when you were here) comment?
Shoriji for one: first move you learn is "mei uchi" which is kind of a "finger slap/snap" (like flicking a wet towel) where you flick your fingers into someones eyes on the end of a punch. This is often the "first counter strike suggested because it is quick and close range. Alot of the primary defenses rely on a step or lean followed by a quick counter strike: the eyes (many head shots and solor plexus being among the favoured targets- the groin is not favored as it is easy to defend and leaves you very venerable to a counter strike. Comments from any martial artists??
Peter
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Peter
After all, diamonds are a girl's best friend…
quote:Originally posted by Newlife: One note coming from someone with a lot of weapons training. If the guy holding it, knows how to use it, you better run... I don't care how you have been trained or who trained you.
Well, heck, that's a given, at least, that's what I teach. However, if you can't run, or feel running would be futile . . . ya' gotta give it your best shot. I sure hope I never have to deal with such a confrontation.
I think your point, Newlife, is that someone trained/skilled with a weapon (or even perhaps someone untrained) can be very dangerous, and training in self defense against an armed opponent can lull one into an overrated sense of ability. I agree. I also teach that if they have a knife or gun, you will likely get cut or shot; but maybe if you pull off a proper response, you can live to tell about it. [/quote]Fully agree that you have to do something. Have you ever done any reading on the OODA cycle or also called the OODA loop? Ken Gould teaches this at the Surefire Training Center and it has really helped my speed and decision making.
Tkd doesn't hard wire you to step back and block. There is no blocking in tkd... I believe when facing an opponent with a knife this could actually be an advantage though since blocking his attack only gets you closer to the knife than you should be.
Originally posted by Simon.: Tkd doesn't hard wire you to step back and block. There is no blocking in tkd... I believe when facing an opponent with a knife this could actually be an advantage though since blocking his attack only gets you closer to the knife than you should be.
Simon: Taekwondo does involve blocks. However, you are correct in that sport taekwondo doesn't focus much on those, but rather focuses more on evasive action/footwork.
Traditional taekwondo art would include kicking, punching and blocking. The nomenclature of martial arts is very deceiving. For instance, my school's name has Taekwondo in it; yet, we only train a minority of our students for sport taekwondo. Our usual practice involves a variety of kicking, hand techniques and blocking (and evasion)that are self-defense oriented. In addition, we also have integrated into our curriculum what one might call "battlefield hapkido." That is curriculum our grandmaster developed which apparently comes from his background in Korean military training and jungle warfare. It's about as far as one can get from sport taekwondo, and it isn't pretty. I feel that we are very lucky to have been given the curriculum and system we have.
Newlife: I did read an article about that a while back. I don't think it was a very good article, however. I'd forgotten about it. I'll probably google it to check it out. Can you elaborate how and/or why it has helped you?
Peter: re hardwiring, it depends on what you are taught! (Whether it's called tkd or not!). In a kick attack, I'm a bit hardwired to slide back or to the side (even stepping in and to the side, sometimes) and block/protect, then counter somehow. For hand attacks/punches (and weapons), I'm more conditioned to block or grab and/or step into the person and finsh things up somehow.
Peter: Concerning eye strikes I think it is a valuable tool and effective for self defense situations. That said one would have to train how to counter the attackers 1st strike, how to enter, and possible follow ups.
Combat is not static (obviously), and though step by step response training has it's place nothing can take the place of flowing sparring.
As far as defending against a knife attack- Chris C. is right, chances are about 100% that you will get cut if you must engage. You better know how to immobilize the attackers hand/wrist in a hurry - and any method that teaches you how to do this is "the best".
Simply blocking an attack will allow another one.
Concerning the step back thing, when sparring in a school setting people get into routines (no matter what style) I believe, which may lead to unrealistic patterns. I've been guilty of it plenty of times. But more than once after studying at other schools I've gone back to the previous one and noticed significantly better results in sparring because my reactions were unlike what the opponent expected- advantage me.
(This applies in street fights too- reacting with rapid fire straight blasts instead of heymakers)
Even my Karate school in Japan, which was fairly eclectic and definitely on the "higher consciousness through harder contact" tip - I had been back in the States doing jiujitsu & judo, then gone back to Japan and sparred with the Karate guys who were used to certain parameters. Well, when it hit the ground it was quickly over. Even standing, my counters were affected by training with others.
Sorry for rambling here... I could talk about this all day.
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Conflict is very time competitive. The attacker presents the victim with a series of unexpected and usually violent situations. By understanding how you brain processes that info, (OODA) you can keep up with the events and react in your favor. I notice I am much more aware of my surroundings and seem to have less "process time" not that I am aware of the steps taking place. Combine this with my current pistol training and I can usually hit target with a holstered weapon in less than 2 seconds.
Originally posted by Newlife: Chris, Sorry you did not like the reading.
Here is my brief take on OODA...
Conflict is very time competitive. The attacker presents the victim with a series of unexpected and usually violent situations. By understanding how you brain processes that info, (OODA) you can keep up with the events and react in your favor. I notice I am much more aware of my surroundings and seem to have less "process time" not that I am aware of the steps taking place. Combine this with my current pistol training and I can usually hit target with a holstered weapon in less than 2 seconds.
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