The fitness industry seems to lately be pushing maximum strength above all else. I know the general public does way too much cardio and not enough strength training and I know athletic performance relies on max strength and so should be improved especially if its deficient an athelete. Maybe that is why the strength aspect is so overemphasized and while I understand the importance of max strength in athletics I feel it limits the variety of workouts one can do for fun and boredom prevention. Most authors now totally poo poo any sort of effort that last longer than 30-60 seconds at a time. We all aren't pro or even competative atheletes here and I still think there has to be some merit to other activites for sport and overall health and fitness.
I also find myself annoyed at the constant berating from the experts on why everything sucks except for max strength and intervals. Well I am sure that my strength is pretty well plateaued and I don't want to gain any size so where does that leave me? I know this because I used to powerlift and was a little stronger and heavier. I mean seriously unless I am going to powerlift again which I don't want to do, my strength is where its going to be for life give or take a few pounds here or there. I lift heavy with low reps on basic routines and that is fine but I can't just keep this up forever. I've got to have some fun.
I used to run on the treadmill for moderate durations and I really got a high from it though I am a lifter through and through. My friend and I would have contest once or twice a week to see who could run the furthest distance in 20 min on the treadmill. I actually enjoyed it for the most part. I never made three miles but came close. Now after reading so many articles saying to aviod such work I feel like why bother to do it again. I can't help but think this would have to help some in a game like soccer where you run your balls off.
Probably because it's winter and the need for beach body workouts will not surface until after the new year or in spring.
There do seem to be a lot of strength oriented workouts in the mix these days, but I think, like any industry, the fitness industry goes in cycles for the sheer reason that there is little that is new.
I have pretty much always worked out for strength, so it does not bother me. What I don't like about strength training is the side of it that tries to tell everyone what they should be capable of lifting, rather than concentrating on getting lifters to do their best.
__________________ In Fitness & Friendship, MAHLER
______________________________ __________________________ There is no light at the end of the tunnel. You carry the light with you.
Thanks for the thoughtful responses guys. I think I tend to get obsessed with the details and want to do everything perfectly by the book.
My goals are somewhat ever changing and ambivalent. Right now I know I going to give indoor soccer an honest go in about five weeks and know that while I'm not out of shape having just come out of mountainbike season, I'm in no shape to run my butt off for soccer. So I'm embarking on more of a conditioning phase, actually have already started breaking in to sprinting. I just tend to get frustrated with my conflicting intrests as well. Mountainbiking is an absolute passion of mine in the summer and fall months and its the antithesis of athletic training according to most research and many of leading authors whom I respect. Personally however, I don't see a major effect myself. I can ride balls out for 90 minutes 2 times per week plus another 1-2 easier rides and still maintain 95%+ of my strength and jumping ability all along. The minute percentage that declines is mostly because of the temporary veil of fatigue from the extra riding. Now developing or improving these qualities may be a different story. I know I should just do what I like and have fun but I really do believe in the max strength importance as I have experienced it myself so I feel a lot of other training while it may offer fun and variety may largly be pointless.
I'm currently at the muscular size I want to be pretty much for life, 6'1.5" 202-210. I never want to weigh more than 210 even though I have weighed up to 225 and was stronger, I feel best and more fit overall at 205.
Would I like more strength? Sure that would be nice but at this bodyweight and without a training partner to push me, it's splitting hairs to gain a few pounds here or there on a compound lift.
Currently I'm at:
Dl:525
BP:315
Squat to LOW box: 400
At my height and relativly low body mass, I'm just not going to get much stronger, I don't care what anybody says. I know there are people my size whp are much stronger but I believe everyone has individual natural strength limits within reason.
Now I can do a specialized strength protocol like Westside and be bored to death to add a few pounds to these lifts. Yes I've trained like this before and don't really feel like doing it a gain. I much prefer simple set rep protocols like 3x5 or 5x3 etc. and feel I can get about 98% of the results this way. I still do enjoy heavy lifting most of the time. It really makes me feel good and a good weight training session will still give as much of a high as anything else but now it is becoming somewhat of a double edged sword as I really am not going to be able to up the numbers much anymore if I stay at my ideal bodyweight.
I guess I really just want to focus on some fun, more conditoning, sprinting type workouts without losing strength. I guess I'm answering my own question in a way.
I must be insane. I know you are if you're still reading this.
You are answering your own question. Sounds like you want to maintain your size and strength? It doesn't take much to maintain, so your 3x5 and 5x3 will probably be fine.
As to your strength limits... I don't know what to tell you. Of course people have genetic limits, but with guys like Eric Cressey pulilng over 600 at 165lbs, I think you're still a little shy of your max. That being said, you're pretty strong (and way stronger than me), so if you don't want more, maintain. Just drop the "genetic limit" part of the argument.
I'm sure mt biking and soccer do interfere with max strength gains, but as you're maintaining, play and ride hard Iand eat up).
Cressey is a freak of nature at deadlifting for sure. My all time best was 601 at 213lbs and then I got away from powerlifting since the club I was at pretty much dissolved. I don't know how much stronger I would have gotten and now that I train alone and do other activities I just don't have the desire to try again.
Yeah, the genetic limit thing was a bit dramatic I'll admit and I suppose I did answer my own question.
It's funny how with all this discussion on here and everyone on the same page as to proper training strategies there are so few people doing proper lifts in the gym.
I would say well under 10% of the people where I train ever do any deadlifting or proper squats. It sometimes makes me wonder why I am lifting these heavy weights all the time and I need a reality check.
Good luck man with whatever you do. Sounds like you kickin some arse. I would feel hard pressed for motivation to powerlift too if I wasn't sure of my goals. Carpenters measure twice and cut once. I'd venture to say that could compare to planning our goals too, which you seem to be working out. Keep us posted on what you decide to do.
if you want to have fun with your training, power to you - sounds like you need a change of pace.
but your kidding yourself if you think that ~1200lbs total at your bodyweight is anywhere near strong enough that basic protocalls will not work anymore.
WV, it may be obvious but don't worry about what the current hot trends are. If conditioning work is what you need then do it and don't worry about forever doing low rep work in the gym. There is (heresey I know) more to fitness than your numbers in the big 3.
Check out Rosstraining or other such sites for ideas on programming that not only addresses your needs but is fun and challenging. Staley's density training, and Dos's version he uses with his athletes are asskickers too.
Traditional meat and potato 6x4 etc... programs bore me to tears anymore, and it's always fun to play with different protocols. Your doing it for you so have some fun.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
3 miles in 20min is about all the aerobic conditioning that you'll need for soccer as you still need power not just endurance. There are too many runners playing soccer these days anyway.
This is a really good discussion in general, but to weigh in on the origional topic, I think it really depends on where you look. Crossfit and Ross Training have gotten way more popular recently and neither one are max strength methods. There is a ton of main stream stuff coming out from Mike Boyle, Mark Verstegen, and similar that doesn't focus as much on max strength.
It all really depends on where you look.
Danny
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Limitations are for people who have them.
I know crossfit gets a bad rap but, I think it is a fantastic concept. I think the main arguement against crossfit is the one size fits all programing and the quantity over quality plus high reps for oly lifts. I agree with most of these arguements but with some tweaking, refinement and more allowance for quality work with a slightly less frantic for time nature, it could be pretty sweet. I know you won't be the best at everything with this approach but most of us don't need to be since we aren't competative atheletes. Sure a strength base should be attained for those who need it since it is a strong driving force behind total fitness but we need to have variety and fun too. I'm not a runner, in fact I don't care for any kind of distance running at all but I sure would feel good if I could knock down a sub 6min mile without coughing up a lung, or a 60sec 400m, or.....you get the point. Anything more than 1-2 miles and I could care less.
I used to be hardcore into powerlifting and wanted to get my lifts as high as possible but now have come to admire the physiques and physical attributes of leaner more well rounded atheletes, like MMA fighters, some soccer players, football speed position players, short distance sprinters, decatheletes, lower weightclass oly lifters, etc.
Like I've said before I am for lifting and max strength but I have been doing this for 18 years and I hopefully have many more ahead of me and I am starving for variety.
You're active. That gives you 90% of the health benefit of any program. Do whatever you enjoy and are most likely to continue to do. You're not getting paid for this.
I think the main arguement against crossfit is the one size fits all programing and the quantity over quality plus high reps for oly lifts. I agree with most of these arguements but with some tweaking, refinement and more allowance for quality work with a slightly less frantic for time nature, it could be pretty sweet.
Which is basically what trainers such as Jon Hinds, Mark Twight, Steve Maxwell, Ross E., and others are doing. Looking into their material will be beneficial.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Kuri mentioned Jon Hinds and I, for one, can't say enough about the man and the Monkey bar gym programs. I received an online membership to MBG last Christmas. At the time I was a very flabby Six foot and 225lbs. Today I'm at a very healthy and defined 174. I can run faster, jump higher, and just be more active and more athletic at 42 than I've been in my entire life - which is saying a lot given my background in sports. There are several options w/in the MBG system that make it very hard to get bored - if that's a concern. I've got a home full of products from MBG/Lifeline USA that I swear by. I usually combine the MBG stuff with my current strength program and it works out great. Sprinkle a little Yoga in there and it's good times. Beyond the Program, Jon is a great guy. I've spoken to him via email several times and he is always excited to offer enouragment.
__________________ "Do the thing and you shall have the power"
I'm not knocking anyone here, since no one's said it, but I don't get why people defend Crossfit, then say it's just the implementation and allowance of poor form that's bad. That's Crossfit. If CF came out against that stuff, then it would be different, but they seem to encourage it because only the (moderately) strong survive? ...and it might be discouraging to many to have to go hire a better coach?
What do people like about Crossfit? Circuits, giant sets, complexes, intervals, and above all, image. Lots of programs have those elements.
All the other places/people mentioned use some similar concepts as CF does, true. But Ross Training, Mark Twight, Monkey Bar, etc. use good periodization, encourage proper form, rotate exercise selection, balance movements, etc.
Personally, I think The New Rules of Lifting, Dos's Power Training, Afterburn, Turbulence Training fall into the same category then, but they don't have the same flashy videos made by leagues of followers to sell the masses on their programs.
So, when people point to some of those, Ross Enamait's programs in particular, and say they are like Crossfit, I get bugged. I don't really see it. They all use weights?
Why are you whining here about it? You can do whatever you want? You claim some pretty good raw compound lifts, so you must know something about training. Have at it.
Well said Roland. The reason for the Xfit comparison is that Ross's as well as MBG etc... use similar implements such as rings, ropes etc... along with ladder sets, timed protocols etc... that New Rules and the like don't use as much.
But as you say there isn't a whole lot of difference when you get down to it. It's all about how to manipulate the factors to address the goal.
MUSA, if you can I encourage you to visit the MBG sometime. Great gym and group of people.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Lost Dog, have you seen (or do you own) Chad Waterbury's new book? I forgot that just came out and I usually like his stuff. It seems that in his previous programs he has pretty much covered every rep range or style of training, so I wonder if his new book will be much different from his older stuff.
Lost Dog, have you seen (or do you own) Chad Waterbury's new book? I forgot that just came out and I usually like his stuff. It seems that in his previous programs he has pretty much covered every rep range or style of training, so I wonder if his new book will be much different from his older stuff.
I've seen Chad's book, and though I haven't read it cover to cover the programs look solid and fun. Nothing new under the sun either, just manipulating length-tension and force-velocity relationships.
I like the idea of getting people to think about the speed at which they lift and taking the emphasis away from just grinding out reps.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Why only maximum strength?
I don't really see it. They all use weights? 
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