My housemate and I regularly read up on new methods of training (some better than others) But recently we heard about the 'westside' method of training.
It seems to me the idea is that you train for hypertrophy, strength and power all at the same time, but i have always been under the impression that if you try to do everything at once, you end up getting nowhere.
any opinions on this method from you experts?
thanks in advance
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Please keep in mind that the strategies utilized by the WSB are designed for advanced trainees, not beginners or intermediates (I hate that terminology by the way...too vague).
Conjugate sequencing is designed for highly qualified athletes who need focused work to raise a specific ability. This strategy used on lower qualifications of athletes is a fast way to injuries and overtraining states as the conjugate sequence is a form of planned, short-term overreaching designed to elicit a delayed training effect.
Westside has modified it to a microcycle version which has been very effective for their group {advanced lifters}. Many others who use it without sufficient forethought or training experience or understanding make terrific gains initially from the max effort work, but plateau very quickly.
Beginners/"intermediates" actually make more, consistent progress on hypertrophy (sarcomeric version...i.e., repetition method) based programming.
Don't get me wrong. Conjugate sequencing is certainly the way to go, but you need a grasp on what the hell you're doing to make it work depending on your level of experience.
On topic:
Re beginner/intermediate, what rough working definition might you have for those terms?
OT and selfish:
I'm 43, never lifted weights for more than about 6 weeks at a shot, and never more than once or twice a year. So, no progress. But I've got nearly a dozen years of regular taekwondo & hapkido training (including all of the warmup work and calesthenics). I've been doing the men's health homegrown muscle routine since the first of the year. I figure I'm a rank beginner.
Though my vanity was a strong motivation for getting into the homegrown routine at the beginning of the year, I now find myself asking more & more: how should I best train for performance? I don't compete, but I want to perform at my best. Essentially, fast, powerful and flexible. And, I wouldn't mind a better body out of the deal. I figured the homegrown routine was a good starting point. But I'm considering switching to more sports-specific training at some point. I'm just not sure at what point. Or what training.
-Supertraining (in my opinion the best source because Dr. Siff pulled info from all the primary sources)
-Science and Practice of Strength Training (Great for understanding Max effort, dynamic effort, and repetition method)
-Tom Myslinski wrote a great Masters thesis on the topic that can be found on www.elitefts.com.
-Dave Tate had a couple of really good articles on T-mag a few years back (Periodization Bible or something)
FYI...for less advanced trainees, modifying Max Effort work to sets of 5's and 3's (depending on training age) usually works nicely with a progressive intensity wave load over 3-4 weeks. You also don't need to rotate your max effort exercises as frequently as WSB in this case.
On topic:
Re beginner/intermediate, what rough working definition might you have for those terms?
I don't think there's a clear-cut definition. It's more like a spectrum where one develops qualities progressively. In that way, you could make comparative statements of this guy is more advanced than that guy.
You could try to say well if you've been training for a year then you are intermediate, but if you training was for crap for a year, you may not be.
You could say that if you can bench press 250 pounds, then you are intermediate but what if you can only squat 135?
It's just a generalized term. Train to YOUR appropriate level of volume and intensity which should be the least that you must do to make the best gains.
When everyone comes up to you in the gym for advice and asks for programs, you may be advanced.
Actually, Bill, it's the perfect answer. And, it's good to again hear the emphasis of training the least one needs to.
I DO find that I seem to almost overtrain on the 3 day a week cycles in the homegrown program. I really liked the 2 day/week training cycles, and seem to develop better with those. I'm not sure if it's age, my genetics, or my other activity (no doubt a comtination), but I'm biased toward two full-body workouts a week, rather than 3 days of upper/lower or whatever split.
probably a stupid question, but when you say modifying the ME days to sets of 5 and 3's, would that be similar protocol to the 1rep usually used. i.e. 90% 1st set, 100% second set, and then 3rd set 100+% of your 3 or 5RM?
Only asking, cause I'm trying to put together my first WSB program and something with less exercise rotation may be more appropriate for me.
You can certainly do it that way. The other option is to perform the same loading pattern but over a period of weeks rather than within the same workout. Trying to hit your 3RM every week is very demanding.
So you could say do 3 reps with your 5RM week 1, 3 reps with 4 RM, and then attempt to hit a PR on the next week.
Bill, how many sets would you reccomend in that rep range b/c you arent really working up to anything like a normal westside routine. I imagine it would fall between 5-8 depending on amount of reps being done?
Also, could waveloading be another alternative for younger trainees who are interested in conjugated training (I may be pulling this out of my ahole so I apologize)? Perhaps doing something like 3/7/3/7/3 or 1/6/1/6/1/6 (or something else of that nature) on ME days ?
how many sets would you reccomend in that rep range b/c you arent really working up to anything like a normal westside routine. I imagine it would fall between 5-8 depending on amount of reps being done?
At least 2, in other words establish the appropriate weight and then train at the appropriate intensity until drop-off in technique occurs. The number of sets will decrease as the intensity climbs, but the advantage for younger training ages is the gain from the volume.
Quote:
could waveloading be another alternative for younger trainees who are interested in conjugated training (I may be pulling this out of my ahole so I apologize)? Perhaps doing something like 3/7/3/7/3 or 1/6/1/6/1/6 (or something else of that nature) on ME days ?
The question is...does this trainee need this type of loading pattern?
If straight sets/wave loads over several weeks are working, there's no need. We run into this whole "what is the appropriate loading pattern for "intermediates" [or whatever the level] thing. Does this trainee NEED more potentiation within the workout to progress. You'll know based on what they've done to get there [training journal!!].
This pattern certainly gets away from the concept of WSB max effort, however. You're using the heavy sets to increase the load on the higher rep sets.
Thats a very good point.. once again the reason why you are qualified and I am not [img]tongue.gif[/img] I totally neglected the fact waveloading helps the higher rep sets, It does get away from the point of westside.
I guess the thing I was getting at is from my own personal experience as a young trainee (and from seeing others I lift with) I seem to respond better to increasing loads within a workout instead of relying on one constant load and trying to increase week to week. (IE increasing percentage of 1RM from set to set) I find this way even if I can't increase the maximum load (what I lift on the last set) week to week I can increase the load on one of the earlier sets and still make SOME sort of the progress. On the other hand younger trainees do respond better to higher volume so I guess I am having trouble melding the two ideas into something that is optimal for newer lifters yet still fits the ME criteria.
The reason I am even looking at conjugated training as an option at an early training age is because I feel that the speed at which I lift is a major sticking point for me so the idea of DE days is very appealing. I really can't think any way to design a "novice" program that contains speed work.
You can still include speed work, but you will find that you will benefit most from a higher percentage than that prescribed by WSB. Whereas they may work from 45-60% on dynamic days you may require 60-70% to recruit enough motor units. As I recall (don't quote me here), Fred Hatfield used ~70% for a version of dynamic effort in training for his 1,014 pound squat.
Also, don't just dive into dynamic effort training if you've only done slower tempo training. Your connective tissues need time to adapt. Otherwise, we'll see you in the injury and rehab forum.
Another thing that popped into my cluttered head...Don't make the % difference between your working sets too broad. In most cases, working sets should not vary by more than 10-15%. The range becomes to broad and you're trying to adapt to too many variables.
One major thing I see as a concern for westside and younger trainees is that it doesn't seem like it would develope that good of a base.
Correct me if I am wrong but b/c you are focusing so much on the 3 lifts(even though they ARE compound movements) you are probably not giving other plains of motion and other muscle groups(ie Lats and the verticle plain of motion) enough attention to properly develope them if they aren't that developed going into it. Is this fear unwarranted?
perhaps a 3-4 day split focusing on compound movements(Chins,Rows,Squat,Pre sses, etc.) with alternating rep schemes from workout to workout is a better idea?
IE:
rep scheme 1 - low reps high intensity w/ some supplemental work
rep scheme 2 - higher rep speed work
The major problem I see in that idea is I doubt the same exersises could be used for both the high rep speed work and the low rep work so too many variables would be changing from day to day to make it useful what so ever. You have to stick w/ something to improve upon it I guess.
I've seen Christian Thibaudeau attack this two ways:
1. The pendulum approach where he varies the stimulus based on the week.
2. The block approach where he variues the stimulus based on three/four week blocks. The differentiator from an Ian King block approach is that there are two work outs per week (a brief one) that focuses on the 'backburner' traits.
So, if you were doing a three week power block, you would do three (or four short) days of power training, one short day of strength, and one short day of hypertrophy.
I found this approach was AWESOME for my power development. The improvement I was able to make on drop pushups was insane. I didn't stick with it long enough to evaluate, but I would guess it would have performed equally well for strength and hypertrophy.
I personally needed some serious help with my lower back strength, so I opted for the 9-week beginner westside program as recommended by GqArtGuy (who has GREAT squat form).
Quote:
Originally posted by Canadian_Bacon: One major thing I see as a concern for westside and younger trainees is that it doesn't seem like it would develope that good of a base.
Correct me if I am wrong but b/c you are focusing so much on the 3 lifts(even though they ARE compound movements) you are probably not giving other plains of motion and other muscle groups(ie Lats and the verticle plain of motion) enough attention to properly develope them if they aren't that developed going into it. Is this fear unwarranted?
perhaps a 3-4 day split focusing on compound movements(Chins,Rows,Squat,Pre sses, etc.) with alternating rep schemes from workout to workout is a better idea?
IE:
rep scheme 1 - low reps high intensity w/ some supplemental work
rep scheme 2 - higher rep speed work
The major problem I see in that idea is I doubt the same exersises could be used for both the high rep speed work and the low rep work so too many variables would be changing from day to day to make it useful what so ever. You have to stick w/ something to improve upon it I guess.
Originally posted by Canadian_Bacon: One major thing I see as a concern for westside and younger trainees is that it doesn't seem like it would develope that good of a base.
Correct me if I am wrong but b/c you are focusing so much on the 3 lifts(even though they ARE compound movements) you are probably not giving other plains of motion and other muscle groups(ie Lats and the verticle plain of motion) enough attention to properly develope them if they aren't that developed going into it. Is this fear unwarranted?
perhaps a 3-4 day split focusing on compound movements(Chins,Rows,Squat,Pre sses, etc.) with alternating rep schemes from workout to workout is a better idea?
IE:
rep scheme 1 - low reps high intensity w/ some supplemental work
rep scheme 2 - higher rep speed work
The major problem I see in that idea is I doubt the same exersises could be used for both the high rep speed work and the low rep work so too many variables would be changing from day to day to make it useful what so ever. You have to stick w/ something to improve upon it I guess.
I think you are a bit off base with your concerns. Besides what Bill brought up about a begginer not being ready in terms of CNS and joint health to handle speed work and constant maxing out, it could build a great base.
The focus of Westside is building big Squats, deads, and benches. This doesn't mean that thats all you do. In fact, the westside program will rarely have a lifter do any of the three lifts. Plus, its just a rough guide. The basic is to pick a max effort lower body movement and lift as heavy as possible, next week you will change exercises. Then, you work on your weaknesses with your supplemental work. That could be anything. If you feel that you need more lat work, put it in after your main lift for the day. Its up to you. Thats one of the main attractions to the program, is that you taylor it to yourself and what you need to work on.
But just to add, with a basic westside layout, by back has gotten hammered like never before. I have done a lot of back work leading up to my try at westside, but its been pretty shocking. To support a low bar squat or goodmorning, you need some damn strong traps and scapular retractors.
With regards to you second comment, the varying reps ranges in a week, I think its a great idea. I think most training programs should vary the reps and sets throughout the week. If you want examples of where it works, look at Chad Waterburys plans. Tons of people love his work. Its based on high rep and low rep days.
Danny
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ya I was just going to point that out; the article had damn good timing.. I realize I was kind of getting off base from what westside is about but just discussing in an effort to come up w/ some new ideas.
DKing, in that type of template he does say one should add some sort of extra lowerbody day if one is not an athelete. For this of us w/ no access to GPP equipment do you have any suggestions?
Wow a lot of topics covered, Ill try to address the ones that stood out for me (now that finals are over). Pay attention because I may be responding to your post
The orignal post:
Quote:
It seems to me the idea is that you train for hypertrophy, strength and power all at the same time, but i have always been under the impression that if you try to do everything at once, you end up getting nowhere.
You are not training for everything at the same time in a WS protocol. You are prioritizing your weaknesses while keeping your strong points at maintenace and waving the priority of different areas based on your needs. You see a lot of back work and GMs but because these build up classic posterior chain weaknesses and allow a squat to go up. WSiders squat, but most work is built around the GM and other assistance lifts that contribute to high contest lifts. Read the articles at elite FTS and youll see better explaning the intuition behind DE and ME days.
I agree with Bill on the newbie approach and I will proabably use a similar setup when doing strongman training.
F1:
Quote:
Only asking, cause I'm trying to put together my first WSB program and something with less exercise rotation may be more appropriate for me.
Why do you feel less exercise rotation is necessary. Granted you dont need to change every week as the advanced lifters do, but you can follow a certain the template's mesocycle for a good 3-4 wks and still make good gains.
Canadian Bacon:
Bill gave great advice on DE %'s, they will need to be higher. Additionally, Bill also pointed out that you need to ask yourself if wave loading is necessary. The reason westside isnt for newbies is because you have to be good at being honest with yourself saying "what are my weaknesses, what has worked for me, what havent I tried, is this neccessary for my goals?" These are hard questions to be honest to yourself about. My chins were stuck at 9 for the longest time so I came up with a plan to hit a goal of 15. I used heavy eccentric pullups 1 cycle, then pavel's ladder to accumulate a high work capacity, then wave loaded chins. When I tested I had reached my goal of 15 in 9 wks. Its all a matter of figuring out what you respond well to and doing it.
Bacon look at www.ruggedmag.com and you will see a lot of logs that use WS for different purposes. The beauty of the system is that you can change to whatever you want to do. If you go to elite fitness, youll see articles written that use the conjugate method for football, hockey, track, etc. Its not just for powerlifting.
Joshman, I look foward to squatting with you soon [img]smile.gif[/img]
GPP is a fancy way of saying "work". Go take a wheelbarrow for a spin, go chop wood, take a sledge to a tire, flip a tire like Joshman and I will be doing, etc.
Yes I realize what GPP is but it is difficult in my current living situation. I think because I am not a training athelete(I am a university undergrad currently) I probably could handle a lower body high rep/low intensity day assuming I was following proper nutrition and rest guidelines. With this in mind I am trying to formulate one that would fit in DeFranco's program. I think because of all the quad dominance he has on his ME day the high rep day should focus more on the hip flexors at the very least(gm's etc)
Yes I realize what GPP is but it is difficult in my current living situation. I think because I am not a training athelete(I am a university undergrad currently) I probably could handle a lower body high rep/low intensity day assuming I was following proper nutrition and rest guidelines. With this in mind I am trying to formulate one that would fit in DeFranco's program. I think because of all the quad dominance he has on his ME day the high rep day should focus more on the hip flexors at the very least(gm's etc)
Im an undergrad too. You can do a farmer's walk for distance, time etc. If you can, do them with barbells instead of dbs cuz you can load more and is a very different feeling.
Great discussion, and I'm learning from it three years later!
Sweet.
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I was just about to pimp WS4Sb and was wondering how it fits in with the discussion. Ive been using it for a while now and have made some good progress.
First suggestion would be to stop looking at it as a "program" and rather as a system or collection of principles. Programs suck. Systems are fluid and adjustable.
If you strip it down to the core, what you have is a set up where you train upper body and lower body twice weekly, with one day devoted to higher volume/tonnage and another devoted to moving heavier weights on a main exercise. This main exercise is followed up with assistance work.
That's it. If you want to train like a powerlifter, you sketch in the details and get the main WSB system. If you want to train more "generally", you sketch in those details and might wind up with something like WS4SB.
There's all kinds of individual fits and modifications you can make to it once you understand that it's not a set in stone way of doing things, and how to specify training for particular goals.
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