Alwyn's AFTERBURN - from the newsletter

[dinabol]

http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/...icexercise.htm


here's an interesting link I found about this topic with numerous studies and references.

[Torque]

Awesome dinabol, looks like I have some reading to do!

[Alwyn]

Christian Finn (the author of the article ) has been in the business a long time. We've never met.
But we seem to agree based on real world experience.


Symbolic - please note the sentence "There's been enough research over the last 25 years to convince almost anyone that aerobic exercise programs are not a very effective way to promote weight loss". Apparently not enough to convince you yet (that's a joke - no offence intended)

But also remember he's only talking about WEIGHT LOSS. [img]smile.gif[/img]

AC

[gregl515]

I prefer steady state cardio because intervals shake the Doritos out of my bag.

[Alwyn]

Originally posted by gregl515:
I prefer steady state cardio because intervals shake the Doritos out of my bag.

When that happens switch your water bottle for a can of Cheez Whiz. That'll help.

AC

[Iceztiq]

Basically, what Alwyn is trying to state to Symbolic is to be SPECIFIC to the topic, main idea, & the thesis statement of the whole thing, which is FAT LOSS. Don't we all learn to be specific in our English paper class in college ?

[kinney1]

from your experiences, do you think cardio is necessary for long term heart health?...like many people on this board, i don't like to do cardio. i would rather do strength and core training...however, i am a bit paranoid that i NEED cardio to live longer. (not to sound too dramatic, but i think you know what i mean) i hope that i am just paranoid about this, and i have noticed other people post similar questions. thanks for any opinions.
kevin

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by Adam Campbell:
I was referring to FAT LOSS only, particularly for the general population. However, I also don't think there's any real evidence that shows that athletes need that many carbs (55-60 percent). That's not to say carbs can't help improve performance, but timing and total carb intake (not a percentage) would be more of a factor.

Adam, I would be willing to bet there is a lot of evidence showing that endurance athletes (e.g. Lance Armstrong) need a heavy carb diet. There must be studies from Gatorade alone that fill up a room (admittedly self-serving). I imagine we're playing with semantics when talking about percentages in diet versus absolute numbers, but I know that professional road cyclists take in 75% of their kcals during a multi-week stage race (or even before the one day classics) as carbs. Of course, there also aren't many guys like them who burn 10,000 kcals in the course of a days workout.

[Symbolic]

Alwyn,

I appreciate and understand your point about the specificity of your articles on fat loss. However, there seems to be a backlash among segments of the fitness industry against steady state aerobic exercise. Perhaps it's unfair, but, I placed you in that category. We tend to be known for the ideas of ours that get most distribution. As an academic, I have a wide range of perspectives. When I publish my research, I get associated with the ideas that I express. It's my responsibility to correct the record if my readers form an impression of me given a lack of publication to balance the record.

It's a good lesson on how we develop reputations. I think it's fair to suggest that your "anti-aerobic" ideas are far more prevalent than anything else. Having said this, you have set the record straight. Again, just remember that we all have special responsibility for our own ideas when we enter the public domain.

I, too, appreciate these discussions when they remain civil and productive. JP deserves a special thanks for maintaining this site! Thanks to all those making contributions to this forum. For me, it's all about trying to learn about fitness and health. This is the Internet at its best.

[Jean-Paul]

Thanks Symbolic. I appreciate the props. I have personally learned a lot by reading these posts. Particularly this thread!

[Newlife]

hey, you ever see a record go around and around for no reason?

I think the message is do whatever the fuck you want... Good discussion, but kind of beaten to death if you ask me. What works for one, may not work for others.

You are in a "no spin zone"!

[dos]

Symbolic,

Just wondering....are you implying that one cannot attain the benefits of aerobic exercise by say doing interval style training such as fartleks? Would you say that since a session may be anaerobic at times, it will not elicit similar benefits to a traditional steady-state aerobic session? For example, one person jogs for 20 min. while ther other does fartlek-style intervals of 30 yrd. jog-40 yd. sprint-30 yd. jog-20 yd. walk etc. When averaging the training HR over the course of the session, the fartlek session will look pretty "aerobic" right?

It would also be safe to assume that the fartlek workout will burn more calories thus burning more fat right?

BTW, I know it is every person's right to remain namelss on these sights but seeing as how we know most of the people involved in this thread (Kaiser, Cosgrove, Adam, myself etc.)would you care to share your identity? I ask because I would be interested in reading some of your published research....you also mention 'reputation' in your post...you're absolutely right! When everyone knows who you are, we put ourselves and our reps out there on each and every post.

[Adam Campbell]

Adam, I would be willing to bet there is a lot of evidence showing that endurance athletes (e.g. Lance Armstrong) need a heavy carb diet. There must be studies from Gatorade alone that fill up a room (admittedly self-serving). I imagine we're playing with semantics when talking about percentages in diet versus absolute numbers, but I know that professional road cyclists take in 75% of their kcals during a multi-week stage race (or even before the one day classics) as carbs. Of course, there also aren't many guys like them who burn 10,000 kcals in the course of a days workout.

No arguments here from me. If I were Lance Armstrong, I would eat a lot of carbs, too. I was just trying to point out that putting a percentage on it isn't necessary (I don't think) when you get into ridiculously high demands for caloric intake. (I'm not sure how anyone eats 7500 calories in carbs a day!) Those guys may eat 75% of their calories from carbs, but would it matter if they eat 50% of their calories from carbs--if they're timed right? Likewise, would it matter if they ate 90% of their calories from carbs? Either way, you're talking about A LOT of carbs--probably ample either way. That's what I was getting at. There is certainly research that shows that higher fat intake improves endurance performance (Peter Horvath at Buffalo has done some of it), so how do they know that eating more fat and less carbs wouldn't work just as well? When you're talking about that much food, then it's hard to say.

That said, even if those cyclists do need 75% of calories from carbs for optimal performance, it's a leap to say that "average" athletes do. I think the majority of research on athletes looks at the addition of carbs DURING a workout (this is typically what Gatorade studies show), when it appears to have a beneficial effect. Total diet--other than eating enough to ensure glycogen levels are "saturated"--wouldn't make a difference, would it? If your blood sugar levels are normal, and your carb stores are as full as they can get, then only what you eat during your workout session would matter. And I don't think you need to eat 60-70% of total calories from carbs over a full day to achieve fully-loaded glycogen (assuming total calorie intake is sufficient). One thing about guys like Armstrong is that they come a lot closer to "depleting" their glycogen stores than most (maybe they even do), so they have to keep up their intake of carbs, and eat a sufficient enough after their workout to replenish them. So that's where I think more carbs would be necessary. And that makes it highly dependent on the duration and intensity of the activity performed.

I'm not sure all that made sense so I'm probably just rambling. I know what I mean, though [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Kaiser]

Made sense to me. I just wanted to point out the rare exception to the rule that exists.

I'm not Armstrong and have never burned more than 4,000 kcals on a long ride, but I have a hard time riding a lot if I try to do South Beach (like my wife did) or even your diet Adam, during the riding season. I can't just take in my carbs immediately pre-ride and during the ride - if I skimp on the carbs the night before a morning 70 miler, I can feel the difference. As a result, I am a solid non-bonking, yet a little fat, rider. It's a tradeoff I'm willing to make until October. Sadly my riding efficiency has told me that, in my own case, what you guys say about carbs and timing and types of workouts holds true.

[FlyinM]

This thread is very informative, not to mention a little entertaining.
I am certainly not the trained professional that JP, Alwyn, Lou, Adam and others are, but I'll tell you a couple of points I am taking away from this discussion. First, there is certainly more an one way to 'skin a cat'. As somebody who has pretty much participated in mostly steady state cardio - I am now motivated more than ever to begin some interval training and see what happens. Second, I should experiment and see which type works better for me. My thoughts are that there is room enough in my training for interval as well as steady state.

Thanks to everybody for a great thread

[Adam Campbell]

Do you mean that you CAN'T take in your carbs pre and during, or that it doesn't work?

If it's the first, it certainly makes sense to me--70-miles is a long ride. Bonking is a real problem for cyclists. If it's the latter, I guess I would wonder if you're getting the carb replacement you need after your workout (and through the next day)--and maybe you're not because of the diet.

Regardless, I'll be first to admit my forte isn't nutrition for athletic performance. (Of course, I'm still waiting to figure out WHAT my forte is.)

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by Adam Campbell:
Do you mean that you CAN'T take in your carbs pre and during, or that it doesn't work?

That it doesn't work. I don't know why, except that I seem to need to be 'stored up' for the rides, even before taking pre-ride carbs as well as Accelerade and Clif bars/banana during the long rides.

Anyway, as soon as October rolls around, it is back to shedding fat for me. The tightness of my pants is not something I like.

Kaiser
Has No Idea What His Forte Is (Might be being a good dad, which would make him happy [img]smile.gif[/img] )

[Adam Campbell]

Cyc