i just read about the dual factor and was wondering if i will need to put in a deload week myself after im done with the Intermediate 5x5 program? (http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm) :S
as i cant see any of it plannet on that page, exept for on the advanced 5x5, but thats not what im doing.
or can i go with the Intermediate 5x5 without using a deload week? if so, then i might have missunderstood some of the dual factor thing :S
If you can continually progress in a linear fasion(ie; add weight to the bar every week, just like you are suppossed to do with singgle factor 5x5) then there is no reason for a deload week.
Having said that, even if you plateua at one point along the line during your run of SF 5x5, that does not mean you have to go to the DF program. All you need to do is make some small change in order to keep progressing in linearly. For example, reset the loads back 3 weeks, lower the volume of the warm-up sets in order to focus more in the top sets, etc, etc
Dont worry about this until the time comes. If you are pretty new to lifting you can progress lineraly for a good 3-6 months.
okay, im not all that new to lifting, though its not that long since i first joined a gym, but i worked out at home some time before that.
so the 5x5 im doing is not one of those dual factor things. why is that? does it allow the body to be completley rested and therefor i dont need a week to do that?
so your saying if i plateua i should just reset the loads back 3 weeks? so its very easy to lift again, then work myself back up to the place i plataued and hopefully keep progressing?
Rip is right. This is what Glenn wrote about the whole 5*5 deal:
1. you are classified BY ME as a beginner, intermediate, or advanced depending on the amount of variation in your training you need to make progress. this is related to how long you have been training, but not neccessarily to how strong you are. some people are never, never going to bench more than 400lbs. is a person who has been training 10 years and has reached 99.9% of their genetic potential a beginner just becasue they are only benching 300lbs? no.
2. the whole concept of beginner, intermediate, and advanced is based off of the following. a beginner can increase the weight on the bar almost every workout, doing the same thing. hundreds, thousands maybe, of beginners have come through WFAC in the past 20 years. all are taught to squat correctly. all can add at least 5lbs to their max set of 5 on the squat 1 or 2 times per week if the squat is done correctly for at least 2-3 months. most for 4-6 months. some for a year. if it is done correctly. this is without any variation in training at all. just adding 5lbs to the work set, and pushing them under the bar and making them do it.
now think about it. is there any faster way to increase your strength than to simply increase the weight on the bar and do it for the same number of reps as you did a lesser weight the last workout? NO. so if you are capable of it, why not do it? most are capable of it for quite a few months after starting training. many, very many, are capable of it if properly motivated and coached after years of training incorrectly. if you are a "beginner" and are capable of this typ e of training, and are doing something more compicated, you are simply wasting time. why increase every 8 weeks when you could increase every training session? beginners should train very simply.
for a beginner, changing the MEANS of training is more effecient than changing the planning... in other words, change to 5 singles, or 3 sets of 10, or whatever, and try to keep linear progress going before you start to get complicated. if you change the means of training, but keep the steady progression, you get faster progress than if yo change to some complicated periodized program that lets you do a new max every 12 weeks!
we start beginners by working to one max set of 5 on monday and friday, with a lighter day on wednesday.
before they try ANY periodization, they will switch to several different rep schemes to try to keep progress going.
INTERMEDIATE is a person who can not progress this way any more. they will do several things. all involve short term "periodization" or altering the workouts so that they have varying stress levels over a week or over as much as a month. this type of p0erson will have by now experimented with several training means, all the way from multiple heavy singles, to speed work, and be doing sort term variation using a progression of training means. think of the westside dynamic day squat cycle, you know, something like 50% 10X2, 55% 10X8, 60% 10X6... think of the "pendlay" or whatever, jeez hated typing that, squat program fo doing 5 sets of 5 on monday, front squats on wednesday, and one max set of 5 on friday... not going much more into this becasue of the book coming out and the fact that i want everyone to have to pay $$$ for it, but thats an intermediate. a guy who can still make progress on a weekly or monthly basis with a little short term variation in their workouts.
an ADVANCED guy is the one who has to plan for several months, even a year or more, for measurable progress. to make progress just by changing the training means, he would have to do something so off the wall that even though he was progressing on what he was doing, he would be detraining for the event he was traiing for. he requires long term planning. again, since i want $$$ from the book, im not going to go into more detail. although i feel like a stupic dumbass for even saying that. oh well, the house payment has to be made, and thats that.
training is made too hard by too many people. its simply a matter of making the fastest progress you can, training int eh most specific way to you particular event that you can. variation is a trade-off. its nice to keep linear progression going as long as possible, increase from workout to workout. but when does the variation in training means required to do this become so great as to interfere with progress toward your specific goal? when and why should you change you level of planning, go to something more long-term instead of just doing speed squats instead of 5 by 5? or something like that.
i dont recomend specific programs really... at least not so much. what i recomend is a long term outlook towards training. a step by step approach. in reality, a very simple approach.
the madcow and meso programs are cut and paste jobs on routines and posts that i wrote on other boards long ago.
the reason there are so many "variations" is that this is really not a workout, but a general progression of training, starting off doing one thing and gradually changing the plan as the months/years go by to keep progress going. thats why you see some "versions" where you always pyramid up, some where you pyramid one day and not the other, some where you do straight sets every day as a load period then de-load. that isnt 3 different versions of a program, its all from the same program but looking at different stages of it.
its annoying to me that people continue to cut and paste things i have written over the years, and present them as a stand alone program that is somehow magic. maybe i have given this impression and am to blame... certainly im sure none of these people mean any harm, and from what i hear the programs have been usefull to some.
but no one program is magic, and it irks me when someone else comes along with a magic mix of sets and reps and claims that HE has discovered the BEST way to train, so it irks me when i feel like i am being set up, or at least some programs i have written are being set up, as doing that.
it may be presumtuous to take on the mantle of the "5 by 5" all by myself, but since i cant find ANY thread about it anywhere that doesnt start with at least some cut and paste from something i wrote and maybe some reference to bill starr... and since i know bill and really most of the training "style" that i use originates with him... well because of that i think i can speak at least a little bit for the 5 by 5 program.
this is NOT a stand alone program. Neither bill starr, rippetoe, or me ever intended to present one version of this "program". following the "5 by 5" as it has been called oddly enough doesnt even mean you have to always do sets of 5. what it is is a method of training simply, very simply and basically. starting out with little or no variation or periodization and little volume... and adding as years and months go by both volume and variation to your workouts.
okay thanks [img]smile.gif[/img] ill stick with this until i cant gain from it anymore, then ill probobly ask here for help:P
and BTW: about the Barbell Row. should the back be paralell to floor and lift the barbell up to the belly button? and what about the grip? about how wide? or doesnt it really matter?
Rip, those links are working (at least for me). Youre most likely talking about JS Rows or Pendlay Rows (same thing). More from Glenn:
Barbell Rows are best by "starting with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows. This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak. The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast." (JS)
*****This movement is easy to mess up. You can do these JS rows on a cable station and it will get you a feel for the movement, from there you can try the barbell version. The way I teach it is to get on a cable row with a low pulley. Grab the pulley and have your torso up right or slightly back, regardless you have a hard arch in your back. From there, let the pulley pull your arms foward without letting go of the arch in your LOWER back. From there, pull explosively in the manner that has been described above. The reason why the cable is an easier starting point is because people have a hard time letting their upper back round without rounding the lower, then theres the issue about concentrating on not moving the hips, etc. It takes a little coordination that people dont have.
first 3 sets are same as monday.
do they mean same as monday exactly, like the same first 3 sets i had that monday.
or do they mean that the description is the same as monday, "ramping weight to top set of 5" ?
same question goes for friday.
"First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8"
again, first 4 sets same as monday exactly, or does he mean by ramping?
it makes the most sence to me if it meant by ramping, as if not, the ramping would stay the same trough the whole time i do this while the final set would increse.
Karky, youre a beginner. You dont need a lot of variation in your routine or manipulations to the intensity that you are reading. Just do 5*5 and aim to increase the weight every week. Progress comes in different forms, you could:
1) Hit a new personal best on the lift. So on one week, you may do the following:
135, 185, 225, 275, 295
then next week:
135, 185, 225, 275, 300
2) End up doing more work in a session (i.e. doing a heavier weight for more sets). More concretely, if on a Monday you do this:
135, 185, 225, 275, 295
then you still improve if on next monday (or friday) you can do:
185, 185, 225, 275, 295
Either way, youre lifting more weight. For now, just focus on eating,resting, and lifting as heavy as humanly possible. As Rip said, once this stuff stalls, then you should change the set/rep schemes and play those out. Once those are done, then you can start thinking about more elaborate periodization schemes.
I did this sort of training for about 5 months. My M/F were back squats, and Wed was front squat day. All I did was train for about 8 weeks to a raw 5rm, then a few weeks to a max triple 3s and 2s. When I got to the 2's, I would go for a new PR on Friday. If I didnt hit a double, then on monday I would do a cluster set of Friday's top weight and do about 6 reps. By Friday, I was confident to hit that weight for a continuous double. Once that stopped, I went for a 1RM max the next week and now Im starting over with emphasis on the weaknesses found when hitting the 1RM.
The program was mostly maximal loading, followed by heavy supplementary loads and then hypertrophy work. Combining all factors of importance to me within the same session.
err, im not changing anything, i just want to know how he means from the routine, so i can do exactly as he has put up his routine.
incase you dident read the first post, here is the routine im on: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm
I read it. Im telling you, just lift heavy, you dont need to worry about this right now.
This link says that on monday, if you do 135*5/5 on monday, then on friday you do 135*4/5, then 145/3, then 135/8. But this is if you take the approach of just using a target working weight for your sessions rather than pyramiding the weight up. There are different ways to go about the setup described in that link, so you should instead focus on just trying your beat yourself every week.
Linear Mode
