I know this is a question with many levels of answer and many related issues. It certainly must vary by sport/athlete.
I imagine one answer is "Strong enough to succeed in your sport."
That said, I've been wondering what level of strength I, as a 48 year old taekwondo/martial arts practitioner, should get to before worrying much about adjunct factors and assistance work.
I ask this question in the context of basic lifts as practiced in Rippetoe's Starting Strength. Thus, I mean strength as shown in the basic lifts of squat, bench press, overhead press and power clean, with some lesser focus on deadlift and a couple of assistance exercises, chins and back extensions in this case. I'd emailed Rip asking about a 2 day program for an older guy and that's what he recommended.
So, before moving on to adding in a lot of other work -- focusing on explosive power/lifts, other assistance work based on needs, etc -- I'm wondering what folks consider to be the important milestones I should hit in the basic lifts (in reference to bodyweight, perhaps). Bench pressing bodyweight for five reps? Squatting twice bodyweight once? At some point, I would be better off working on largely maintaining a level of basic strength, and focusing on special needs and putting more time into general conditioning and skills practice. It's all a balancing act, of course.
Whatever your answers are, I ain't there yet in terms of basic strength!
i believe there are some olympic lifters who reached a point where they didn't see a need in increasing their squat anymore, and would rather see more benefit from technique work, and other aspects of the lift. Let's say you can only clean 300, but can squat over 500, you're not going to see a lot of benefit from increasing your front squat. I THINK Dimas was like this, but i can't remember for sure.
For me, it's get as strong as you can, and as fast, but mine is a strength sport.
IMO, i think benching is a pretty worthless exercise in terms of the benefits you get from it (hypertrophy and tri strength). But that's just me. I don't see a lot of use for the flat bench press in athletics/sports.
i'm not familiar with martial arts, so i can't make a conclusion about what lifts are important for it.
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I imagine one answer is "Strong enough to succeed in your sport."
And strong/balanced enough not to get injured.
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I don't think competitive athletes (outside pl and oly lifters) or their coaches care much about hitting certain weights as much as seeing an improvement in performance. Saying that one should hit a bw bench for 5 etc... is backwards - rather one should ask if putting in the time and effort to do that rather than devoting that time to specific work or conditioning is worth it.
You feel that your strength is not up to par, so there is your answer. Just get stronger and see how it impacts your martial arts. When you get to a point where it doesn't impact your sport, or you KO Fedor, then you are strong enough.
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I don't think competitive athletes (outside pl and oly lifters) or their coaches care much about hitting certain weights as much as seeing an improvement in performance. Saying that one should hit a bw bench for 5 etc... is backwards - rather one should ask if putting in the time and effort to do that rather than devoting that time to specific work or conditioning is worth it.
You feel that your strength is not up to par, so there is your answer. Just get stronger and see how it impacts your martial arts. When you get to a point where it doesn't impact your sport, or you KO Fedor, then you are strong enough.
I hear you, Chris. However, with me not competing, it's trickier to judge increased performance. Judging "strong enough" is a bit tricky. How about, "Strong enough to kick a big guy's ass."? To do that, my technique, timing, speed, accuracy and power all have to be there. Being strong is a pretty good part of that.
Thus, I am looking for some milestones, as a bit of a goal-setting framework and as a motivation. But, lifting goals are definitely not my top priority; if anything, I lift with what's left in the tank (in terms of my recovery schedule) after conditioning and MA training.
Strong enough = You. You're a black belt\instructor. You've been successful with the level of strength that you have. It's "enough" to be good at your sport.
Milestone = 10lbs more than you lift today.
For the most part I think you're looking for an answer that doesn't exist. If you want to kick a big guys ass, strength probably isn't going to be a major factor because he's almost certain to be stronger than you. That's just a battle you're going to lose. If it were me, I'd look into something with a lot of single side lifts and rotational power exercises.
So what are your current max loads in the major lifts then? Or at least lifts you'd like to improve upon?
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There's no clear-cut answer, if you're looking for specific numbers.
However, I'd suggest a simple guideline: if you have to devote specific, specialized training to your lifts for them to improve, you're probably strong enough.
Think of what happens when you take a raw newbie and put him/her on a strength program. Progress is rapid, and they'll get stronger from just about anything.
Once that stops, you're considered "intermediate". At the intermediate stage, you still get stronger with relatively little planning. It just takes a little more time and effort.
To get past this stage, you really have to specialize and focus intently in order to improve further.
If you start out with a 150 lb squat and improve it to 400 lbs in a couple of years, you've gotten bigger and improve all around. Take that squat to 500 lbs and you've probably added marginally more than that; you got a lot stronger but your overall potential in other areas probably didn't go up all that much. If you can manage to add still another 100 lbs, you've had to really bust ass and make that 100 lbs your goal above all else*.
In other words, "strong enough" would be where the time and effort you have to expend to get any stronger would preclude doing any other training, and the carryover to your sport would be minimal.
Which is also operating on the presumption that we're talking about carryover from the big lifts. Max strength in your training lifts is just one way to gauge things, by laying a foundation. Strength is relevant to sport in more specific ways; once you tap out the gains of progressive loading on the big lifts, it'd be wise to just maintain that foundation and focus on more specific needs.
* Assuming you're natural and not gear-whoring
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Last edited by PowerManDL : 08-14-2008 at 05:42 AM.
I believe Waterbury also wanted a 2x BW full squat for fighters
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"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
If you're competing in sports then stronger enough becomes stronger than the guy you're competing against. You'll also want to add faster, etc... I guess what I'm saying is that there is no 'strong enough.' There may come points in time where strength is less important than quickness or endurance, but eventually you'll come back around and strength will again be number 1.
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However, I'd suggest a simple guideline: if you have to devote specific, specialized training to your lifts for them to improve, you're probably strong enough. . . .
In other words, "strong enough" would be where the time and effort you have to expend to get any stronger would preclude doing any other training, and the carryover to your sport would be minimal. . . .
. . .Strength is relevant to sport in more specific ways; once you tap out the gains of progressive loading on the big lifts, it'd be wise to just maintain that foundation and focus on more specific needs.
Thanks, all, for the feedback.
Matt, what you noted makes sense, and, in essence, it's what Ripptoe says (i went back digging a bit). In essence, he notes that once one gets past their initial beginner gains and needs to start varying things a bit (moving into intermediate), then many athletes may (depending on the sport/needs, particularly high skill sport that don't require great strength) more or less hold steady (or just take the incremental improvements they get) and focus on other attributes and skills important to the sport.
In essence, it the process Rip outlines: stay with the basic big lifts, do a couple of back off periods as needed when gains stall, then when gains stall after that, start varying/adding a bit (now moving into intermediate stage). Assess needs/time/focus from there.
I'm still a beginner, but when I finish those beginner gains, I may not worry too much about significant additional gains, because I will likely be strong enough for what I do. Or, I can always decide to work a bit diligently to get a bit stronger yet.
So what are your current max loads in the major lifts then? Or at least lifts you'd like to improve upon?
For reference, I currently weight 155, and high teens bf%. (and I'm 48, with low average T levels for a guy my age.)
Don't know max loads, but currently for 3x5:
Squat 190
Bench 130 (previous top load; problem shoulder right now)
Deadlift 205
Power clean 115
I'm pretty strong on core tests, balance, flexibility etc. Remember, Chris, I got top score on Bill H's tests at JP's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbla
Strong enough = You. You're a black belt\instructor. You've been successful with the level of strength that you have. It's "enough" to be good at your sport.
Milestone = 10lbs more than you lift today.
For the most part I think you're looking for an answer that doesn't exist. If you want to kick a big guys ass, strength probably isn't going to be a major factor because he's almost certain to be stronger than you. That's just a battle you're going to lose. If it were me, I'd look into something with a lot of single side lifts and rotational power exercises.
IMO, i think benching is a pretty worthless exercise in terms of the benefits you get from it (hypertrophy and tri strength). But that's just me. I don't see a lot of use for the flat bench press in athletics/sports.
It seems to me that the ability to generate power through leg drive, strong scapular stabilization and triceps into the bar would be of value in some sports. No?
There might be better uses of training time, but I have a hard time believing that putting time into them would have so little value.
I can, on the other hand, see how a ceiling would be appropriate. For example, if Chris (a martial artist) really mastered accelerating his own bodyweight on the bar vs. doing double his bodyweight for a slow grinder.
That said, I'm no martial artist and I don't train athletes, so I could be wrong.
Ross Enamait's Infinite Intensity book goes into the discussion of strength vs power for combat athletes in pretty good detail. Its a good read and I highly recommend it, after listening to Steve Cotter and reading this book, I have changed up my martial arts training (Lost Dog and Kuri, have helped also )
Ross Enamait's Infinite Intensity book goes into the discussion of strength vs power for combat athletes in pretty good detail. Its a good read and I highly recommend it, after listening to Steve Cotter and reading this book, I have changed up my martial arts training (Lost Dog and Kuri, have helped also )
Thanks. I've got it, and understand that. But I am assuming that it is helpful to have some base level of strength established to support everything else. So, my question is, perhaps, in regards to how much of a base to focus on establishing before significantly broadening out to focus MORE on other qualities. I have no idea what Steve Cotter talks about.
before significantly broadening out to focus MORE on other qualities
Qualities like what though?
Endurance(strength\power)\flex ibility\power(absolute)? And then what kind of time line are you looking at? If you're willing to stretch out your training life to a year, or two, or ten. Do you think that there's a compelling reason why you couldn't incorporate everything that you feel is important? Rank from least proficient to most. The the least more often than the most? Factor in your skill training, does that give you "enough" endurance\flexibility\power in and of itself?
Going back to square 1, you're over thinking it. Strength is always #1, and down the line it goes but in your case...for Chris...order and programming probably doesn't matter what you choose. Be balanced, be progressive. No matter what scheme you choose to do those things you're going to be better off.
I can, on the other hand, see how a ceiling would be appropriate. For example, if Chris (a martial artist) really mastered accelerating his own bodyweight on the bar vs. doing double his bodyweight for a slow grinder.
If you can bench 2x bw, 1x bw is going to be damn fast pretty much always i would think.
If you can bench 2x bw, 1x bw is going to be damn fast pretty much always i would think.
True. I am thinking in terms of time spent on training. It'll take a lot less training time to get a good, speedy bodyweight bench press than a 2xbw press.
It seems to me that the ability to generate power through leg drive, strong scapular stabilization and triceps into the bar would be of value in some sports. No?
There might be better uses of training time, but I have a hard time believing that putting time into them would have so little value.
I can, on the other hand, see how a ceiling would be appropriate. For example, if Chris (a martial artist) really mastered accelerating his own bodyweight on the bar vs. doing double his bodyweight for a slow grinder.
That said, I'm no martial artist and I don't train athletes, so I could be wrong.
I'm not an expert, but i would think that scapular stabilization can be achieved through other things as well, right? I think military presses are great for building more applicable strength. The problem comes when you have people whose shoulders take a beating.
The reason why i think benching is not that useful besides the above mentioned, is that you're usually not on your back pushing something off of you in a sport. It's just not a common movement pattern.
Of course, anything builds strength, you just have to choose what you want to do.
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Chris C, yes I do remember Bill's assessment - so you are good there so why not focus on strength work and let other stuff take a back seat for a month. Your current loads suggest alot of room for improvement. Rip's got some great programs, but I'd substitute neutral grip db bench work for bb work, no OH pressing, and lots of pulling work - chins, inverted rows, face pulls etc... at least until your shoulder is good.
As for lower body DLs, RDLs, glute ham raises, front squats, and plenty of unilateral single leg work are the staples I'd program for you.
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Chris C, yes I do remember Bill's assessment - so you are good there so why not focus on strength work and let other stuff take a back seat for a month. Your current loads suggest alot of room for improvement. Rip's got some great programs, but I'd substitute neutral grip db bench work for bb work, no OH pressing, and lots of pulling work - chins, inverted rows, face pulls etc... at least until your shoulder is good.
As for lower body DLs, RDLs, glute ham raises, front squats, and plenty of unilateral single leg work are the staples I'd program for you.
Rip's suggested programming is a bit light on the typical vertical and horizontal pulling. I was thinking of adding in the inverted rows on the day opposite chins.
My shoulder matter is really a scapular matter. OH pressing is OK. I have a hard time keeping my right scap retracted and stabilized during horizontal pushing (including pushups). When I DO get it in the right place, I am very weak, because I was previously apparently doing some odd compensation in an improper position. So chiro adjustments revealed this. I must have developed a bad habit due to some mechanical limitations. So, I've got to get strong on the right side in the proper position.
The routine I've started following which Rip suggested is:
Day 1
Squat
Bench
Chin
Back extension
Day 2
Squat
OH Press
Power Clean/Deadlift
I decided to do it as suggested rather than adjust, such as putting the cleans/explosive work first. I do work some elasticity stuff on another day or two, often in classes.
Frankly, my MA performance was noticeably improved after doing two cycles on Alwyn's MA conditioning program; I really like that program a lot. But, I got the bug to just focus on strength, and went the Rip route based on what I was reading here. It's absent uni work, but I figure that's OK for a while.
EDIT: Shoot, I can knock off five or six boards now; imagine if I was stronger! Or, knock back those 200-plus pound guys with front, side or back kicks; now I can only make them say "OOF!" (through the body bag)
I didn't want to make this totally about me. I figured we might also get into some good discussion about athletes in general, particularly those in sports which require multiple attributes and/or which are particularly skills based.
This would be different than, say, a strongman competitor, a shot put competitor, or a football lineman, who would want to continue strength gains as much as possible.
In that context, I still stand by the validity of my initial question. For instance, a somewhat weak tennis player could still be very talented and win often. Yet, a S&C coach could look at the untapped potential and assess that the tennis player can certainly get stronger and would likely benefit (become an even more dominant player) from a focus on strength work. However, when looking at recovery and time issues, that work may mean that other training and practice holds steady.
Then when the player gets to some point -- perhaps the point when, as Matt originally pointed out, that strength training programming would have to get more complicated or time consuming in order to continue decent gains (somewhere in the intermediate level) -- the coach decides to not worry about strength so much and to work more on other attributes. Perhaps the volume of strength training in a session is reduced, or the frequency of sessions is reduced.
Now, the matter could be one of phases, I suppose -- work on strength more in the off-season and hold steady during a regular season. Or, it could be more a case of "I'm strong enough for what I do, so I'm only going to get to the weight room every 5th day."
I was just wondering what markers or milestones one might use to assess when a given athlete's initial strength potential/increases are achieved and more than that isn't needed or isn't as worth it for that athlete.
In my case, it's the difference between including strength work twice in seven days, (more than that interferes with recovery for conditioning and practice) or once every 5th day, which gives me more time for the the other work and for recovery. However, I assume, and it is an assumption, that since I am not terribly strong, it is worth it to put in the time more frequently and adjust training, diet, and rest/recovery accordingly to get the benefit of that training. Then, at some point (the Matt/Rip "beyond basic gains" point, perhaps), I can step back a bit on strength work. Of course, the greater frequency would mean, ideally, that I would get to that point FASTER, which may be worth it in the overall scheme of things. Then I can just coast!
Right now I can still pretty much match or come close to any student or immediate peer I have, regardless of size/strength, with kicking power, except for the really big, strong guys. Then we also have the hapkido and throwing work, where more strength can always help.
It all comes down to what you're using as your measuring stick and what time frame you're working with. In some sports the entire purpose is to make contact with the other person. Assuming that you can go through your technique at a particular speed and it not really matter how hard the impact is, extra strength isn't going to have a huge direct impact. On the same hand extra strength might make it easier to work at a higher volume of lower intensity work or squeeze out that extra fraction of a second. So it's rare that you can go wrong with getting stronger.
IMO strength is extremely important but misunderstood as to what it means. Being "strong" doesn't have anything to do with the big three and it's not necessarily measured by doing a 1rm. You *can* use them as tools but they're just exercises like every other exercise or measurement. You lift weights to get better at your sport, not to get better in the weight room. With this in mind you're going to look at weight room work as general\supplemental work. It's alllllways general. Find out qualities that are important to you. Do your skill work. Take your general work and fill in gaps, maintain the other qualities. Progress, progress, progress...in a way that's relevant to your sport.
It all comes down to what you're using as your measuring stick and what time frame you're working with. In some sports the entire purpose is to make contact with the other person. Assuming that you can go through your technique at a particular speed and it not really matter how hard the impact is, extra strength isn't going to have a huge direct impact. On the same hand extra strength might make it easier to work at a higher volume of lower intensity work or squeeze out that extra fraction of a second. So it's rare that you can go wrong with getting stronger.
IMO strength is extremely important but misunderstood as to what it means. Being "strong" doesn't have anything to do with the big three and it's not necessarily measured by doing a 1rm. You *can* use them as tools but they're just exercises like every other exercise or measurement. You lift weights to get better at your sport, not to get better in the weight room. With this in mind you're going to look at weight room work as general\supplemental work. It's alllllways general. Find out qualities that are important to you. Do your skill work. Take your general work and fill in gaps, maintain the other qualities. Progress, progress, progress...in a way that's relevant to your sport.
Hey, Tony, nice new avatar. Your lips are much more noticeable.
I hear what you're saying. I've spent too much of the past few years since I started weight training vacillating between the priority of that training and other needs for martial arts. The result is that I've not gotten much stronger (well, I have in a overall, core and balance way, I suppose, but not nearly so much as you'd expect to see in three or four years of training) nor have I improved my conditioning and skills as much as I might have. That's just my assessment.
When I came across Rip's books, I got convinced I just needed to work more on getting stronger, particularly after all of the not-terribly-productive time I've spent under a bar. Then again, at 48 yrs olds, my progress will be a bit slower in that regard anyway. A guy's just gotta hit a 405 deadlift by his 50th birthday, doesn't he? LOL
However, I do realize that at some point I should more or less cap the strength work (or lower it's priority) and then just improve on mastering my arts and continue to improve my overall conditioning to get ready for the big fight that will never happen (or to better impress, inspire, motivate and instruct students).
How strong is strong enough for an athlete?
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