Basically it's saying that you should not arch your lower back beyond it's natural, neutral curve - including during squatting movements.
Yet I've got weightlifting books at home and have read articles and seen pics on the net which say outright that you should arch your lower back and stick your butt out when squatting and deadlifting.
Any thoughts?
I'm beginning to wonder if I've been overarching my spine all these years.
I arch my back as hard as possible, thats what i have been taught as well. Almost all powerlifters do this, i cant imagine it being very harmful.
Note on a video of your squat or deadlift. Do you arch too much? Probably not, even though you are trying as hard as possible.
Hyperextension is not a good idea in the long term. Flexion is a bad idea in both short and long terms.
Neil, please post a vid of you squatting and we'll see if it's out of the "normal lordosis" curve. As soo as I can find someone who can illustrate my point, I'll post vids too.
Hey....I'm new here, but I'm actually bip's (he hasn't posted on here for the longest I think) classmate. It's a better idea to lift with the spine in its natural lordotic curve and focus on abdominal bracing during squats, deads, etc. A hyperlordotic spine will decrease the quality of bracing during your lifts. Hope that helps in any way...
Hyperextension is not a good idea in the long term. Flexion is a bad idea in both short and long terms.
Agree completely. Based upon the assumption that most people do not have normal mobility at the hips, during squatting, if you are not actively trying to maintain the lumber lordosis, it will flatten out (as the available range of motion in the hips is taken up). More back injuries occur (in everyday life) because of flattened lumbar curves rather than exaggerated. And more desk-jockeys have flattened lumbar curves just from all the sitting that they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingDysfunction
Hey....I'm new here, but I'm actually bip's (he hasn't posted on here for the longest I think) classmate. It's a better idea to lift with the spine in its natural lordotic curve and focus on abdominal bracing during squats, deads, etc. A hyperlordotic spine will decrease the quality of bracing during your lifts. Hope that helps in any way...
Tell Jonathan that we miss him.
And I'll say that although this is good in theory ... you will find that in practice it is not necessarily accurate. Try deadlifting or squatting and consciously relaxing your abs/core. Now try it and don't think about it, just observe what your abs naturally do. For someone with a history of back injury, yes, they need to perhaps focus on abdominal activation at first, to re-teach the core how to function. But IMO it is better for the majority of lifters to focus on really maintaining that arch (especially since most probably have a reduced lumbar arch).
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Agree completely. Based upon the assumption that most people do not have normal mobility at the hips, during squatting, if you are not actively trying to maintain the lumber lordosis, it will flatten out (as the available range of motion in the hips is taken up). More back injuries occur (in everyday life) because of flattened lumbar curves rather than exaggerated. And more desk-jockeys have flattened lumbar curves just from all the sitting that they do.
I agree that people with hip mobility issues should focus on maintaining their lordosis, but what about the portion of population that have an excessive lordosis (tight hip flexors, decreased core strength)? Wouldn't heavy squats feed into that abnormality and put more stress on the vertebral column? Just from personal experience, I feel a lot better during my lifts when I properly brace vs having an excessive arch(I have a hypermobile lumbar spine).
Quote:
Tell Jonathan that we miss him.
And I'll say that although this is good in theory ... you will find that in practice it is not necessarily accurate. Try deadlifting or squatting and consciously relaxing your abs/core. Now try it and don't think about it, just observe what your abs naturally do. For someone with a history of back injury, yes, they need to perhaps focus on abdominal activation at first, to re-teach the core how to function. But IMO it is better for the majority of lifters to focus on really maintaining that arch (especially since most probably have a reduced lumbar arch).
I'll give him the message, since we speak all the time. Interesting about the desk jockeys, Jon and I usually speak to each other about various ortho topics (we're nerds) and one topic was about pelvic positioning. I know that when people sit all day, they're generally in PPT position which leads to shortened HS's leading to a decreased lordosis. What about people that do not sit in a PPT position? The HS's are shortened by their insertion point, but they're stretched out by the ischial tuberosities...which prevents overall HS shortening. Do you find this accurate or are we off? I ask this because we see people in class and in public that sit all day, but are still excessively anteriorly tilted.
Last edited by Lisa~ : 08-13-2008 at 08:10 AM.
Reason: corrected the quotes
I agree that people with hip mobility issues should focus on maintaining their lordosis, but what about the portion of population that have an excessive lordosis (tight hip flexors, decreased core strength)? Wouldn't heavy squats feed into that abnormality and put more stress on the vertebral column? Just from personal experience, I feel a lot better during my lifts when I properly brace vs having an excessive arch(I have a hypermobile lumbar spine). I accidently put my reply in your quote...crap.
More back injuries occur (in everyday life) because of flattened lumbar curves rather than exaggerated.
I agree with WD (WD? What should I call you? ) on this one. I've been working at a chiropractor's clinic doing movement analysis for his patients. He is of the same opinion as Julie and says he sees more flattened lumbar spines than hyperlordotic. In the gym, however, I see a lot more APT than PPT. Big guys with big guts are pulled into APT, whether they stand or not. During squatting I'll see them throw their upper bodies back in an attempt to explode out of the bottom position, and they increase their arch at that moment as a result. These clients are tight in the hip flexors (sitting contributes) and often weak in the glutes and abs as well, but in APT, not PPT.
I probably didn't articulate that as well as WD, but I get what he's saying and it's what I see in many clients, too.
Well ... it depends. It's hard to make blanket statements about populations because really there is lots of individuality within any population.
So, let's take desk jockeys. Most will have tight hip flexors. Most will have tight hamstrings. (despite the lengthening at the proximal attachment ... clinically you will find that MOST have tight hamstrings) Most will have tight calves. Most will have weak cores. Most will have glutes that do not fire properly (if at all ... ie flat-butt syndrome). (Keeping in mind we are not necessarily talking about weekend warriors or even daily exercisers here ... strictly sedentary desk jockeys.)
So, does that mean that the woman who fits the above description, but who was a competitive gymnast during her youth, and who now has had three kids is going to have a flattened lordosis? No. But will the man who was a computer nerd in high school and never played sports but was in a motorcycle accident in his early 20s and now walks with a mild limp? Again, hard to guess (even hypothetically) but I would guess the woman would be hyperlordotic and the man hypolordotic. So would the recommendation for each be the same?
So, what it really boils down to is how do you make blanket statements for certain populations? In general, from my standpoint, you will get a bigger injury from squatting with a flattened or rounded lumbar spine than you will from hyperlordosis (ie disk herniation). And no one wants herniated disks.
Hyperlordosis is generally about correcting muscle imbalance assuming that there are no structural issues (like spondylolisthesis) ... lengthen the hip flexors, strengthen the glutes and abs. When someone doesn't have enough lordosis, it generally isn't about strengthen this and lengthen that.
Hope that all made sense ...
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I agree with WD (WD? What should I call you? ) on this one. I've been working at a chiropractor's clinic doing movement analysis for his patients. He is of the same opinion as Julie and says he sees more flattened lumbar spines than hyperlordotic. In the gym, however, I see a lot more APT than PPT. Big guys with big guts are pulled into APT, whether they stand or not. During squatting I'll see them throw their upper bodies back in an attempt to explode out of the bottom position, and they increase their arch at that moment as a result. These clients are tight in the hip flexors (sitting contributes) and often weak in the glutes and abs as well, but in APT, not PPT.
I probably didn't articulate that as well as WD, but I get what he's saying and it's what I see in many clients, too.
Yes ... absolutely. That's why it is hard to make a blanket statement ... because not every person is the same. And what it might be is that those with APT are more readily apparent as abnormal looking in the gym (ie the way they throw their upper body back) whereas some one with a flattened lordosis won't look so abnormal (unless it's really really bad) but will be more likely to sustain a bad injury (since a spine in a flexed position should not be loaded).
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Hyperlordosis is generally about correcting muscle imbalance assuming that there are no structural issues (like spondylolisthesis) ... lengthen the hip flexors, strengthen the glutes and abs. When someone doesn't have enough lordosis, it generally isn't about strengthen this and lengthen that.
Hope that all made sense ...
Yes, it did. Good stuff. I agree that we've got to look at each person individually. The above paragraph is the most important, though. When I create a plan to correct movement patterns (for exercise technique or for everyday movements) it's actually easier with the APT client for that very reason.
Which leads me to the topic of hamstring tightness that isn't muscular, but neural, and how to best correct it. I've got to head to the gym, but great discussion. You guys carry on!
Oh, and one more thought ... you will find that people have horrible proprioception in their pelvis. Most have no idea how to even do a pelvic tilt ... teaching the pelvic clock can be one of the most frustrating things ... but I digress ... I think the cue to really maintain the arch during squats and deads is simply that ... a cue to have people prevent the rounding that occurs naturally (watch a child squat ATG ... their lumbar spine rounds naturally at the bottom of the movement) to prevent injury and to keep tension on the glutes. The intention of the cue is not to cause hyperlordosis ... just to prevent flattening.
For those who have good proprioception, that cue is unneccessary ... and excessive.
ETA: And for those who are in an anterior pelvic tilt already, it is just going to exacerbate.
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People can just call me Rich instead of my long sn. I totally understand what Julie is saying, which is why I've truly realized that exercise programs should be custom to each person...."healthy" or injured. Certain exercises and technique recommendations can feed into a person's abnormalities and create greater imbalances.
It's pretty crazy that Jon and I are one semester away from graduating PT school. We still feel like there's so much more to learn. I just found out that I passed my CSCS exam yesterday...woo hoo!!! So I'm looking forward to improving my clinical eye as a trainer to spot out dysfunctions and correcting them. I hope to expand my knowledge base on these forums. I was planning on receiving the book Athletes: Bodies in Balance by Gray Cook and the Inside-Out DVD for my bday.....any verdicts on these? I also plan to get Low Back Disorders by Stuart McGill.
Rich, remember that PT school just gives you a base ... you need to keep going to Continuing Education courses to further your skills/knowledge. Plus advancing your clinical reasoning skills through practice ... there is nothing better than clinical experience to get that.
As for those ideas ... you can't go wrong with any of them. If you are looking to advance your evaluation/assessment skills, then I'd go with ABIB ... if you want some good treatment ideas, then I/O.
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Thanks for the advice!.....I actually have a different question. In rehab, I think every PT I've seen uses the traditional 3x10 volume for exercise prescription (I've used it on my first clinical as well). I figure it is used at an intensity that limits the potential for stressing injured structures and also to correct fatigue induced weakness as well. Is this a correct assumption? Have you ever varied the intensity and volume for your pt's (i.e. 3x15, 4x10, 5x5) once they reach the return to function stage? I
He is of the same opinion as Julie and says he sees more flattened lumbar spines than hyperlordotic. In the gym, however, I see a lot more APT than PPT.
Great point! Most of my clients are in APT too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UConnJulie
In general, from my standpoint, you will get a bigger injury from squatting with a flattened or rounded lumbar spine than you will from hyperlordosis (ie disk herniation). And no one wants herniated disks.
When someone doesn't have enough lordosis, it generally isn't about strengthen this and lengthen that.
Come to think of it...isn't it really hard to hyperextend the lowerback on squats? I mean - you can hyperextend a little when you are halfway up, but true hyper-hyper-extension happens mostly on deadlifts. Worst case scenario is rounded back at the bottom + hyperextension at the top.
Would you please elaborate some more on people that don't have enough lordosis? Are we talking about pelvic tilt or lordosis? Wat is it about?
The curvature of your lumbar spine is related to the tilt of your pelvis. Shortened hamstrings will pull the pelvis into a posterior pelvic tilt position (common with desk jockeys). A posterior pelvic tilt position will lead to a decrease in lordosis or flattened back. The back will become more rounded as you get deeper into your squat if you have this and increase the risk of injury.
Thanks for the advice!.....I actually have a different question. In rehab, I think every PT I've seen uses the traditional 3x10 volume for exercise prescription (I've used it on my first clinical as well). I figure it is used at an intensity that limits the potential for stressing injured structures and also to correct fatigue induced weakness as well. Is this a correct assumption? Have you ever varied the intensity and volume for your pt's (i.e. 3x15, 4x10, 5x5) once they reach the return to function stage? I
I have ... but it depends upon the client, what they have been doing prior to injury, and what they are planning to return to ... as well as how many insurance visits I have with them.
With my private clients, I do lots of different rep/set schemes ... again, depending upon the training goal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ts.vassilev
Great point! Most of my clients are in APT too.
Come to think of it...isn't it really hard to hyperextend the lowerback on squats? I mean - you can hyperextend a little when you are halfway up, but true hyper-hyper-extension happens mostly on deadlifts. Worst case scenario is rounded back at the bottom + hyperextension at the top.
Would you please elaborate some more on people that don't have enough lordosis? Are we talking about pelvic tilt or lordosis? Wat is it about?
Well, as Rich explained, pelvic tilt is related to lordosis ... and people who don't have enough lordosis are usually in a posterior pelvic tilt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ts.vassilev
Yes - glutes, hamstrings and abs tilt the pelvis backwards. Erectors, hip-flexors and such tilt the pelvis forwards.
So how come:
-to go from APT to PPT you stretch/release the hip-flexors, strengthen the abs and posterior chain(mostly glutes, than hams and ES)
-but to go from PPT to PPT you can't just strengthen your hip-flexors and stretch glutes/hams? PNF leg diagonals, psoas activation etc. etc.
It seems like you should be able to, but clinically I have found that it doesn't work. That's not to say that you don't take those principals into consideration, but it seems more ... structural than that. These folks likely have connective tissue and joint capsule changes and need more aggressive hands-on manual mobilization to get things moving properly again. And many (if desk jockey stereotypes) have a posterior pelvic tilt, no lordosis, and weak flabby abdominals!!
They tend more to stiffness and need more mobility and flexibility ... where it seems to me that many who are APT need more stability and strengthening.
Just my observations though ... and that's with a typically non-healthy population since I work in a PT clinic where I generally only see people once they've been injured. Most of them are not even remotely athletic ... and that may be the difference between what the chiropracter and I see versus what Lisa sees.
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People can just call me Rich instead of my long sn. I totally understand what Julie is saying, which is why I've truly realized that exercise programs should be custom to each person...."healthy" or injured. Certain exercises and technique recommendations can feed into a person's abnormalities and create greater imbalances.
It's pretty crazy that Jon and I are one semester away from graduating PT school. We still feel like there's so much more to learn. I just found out that I passed my CSCS exam yesterday...woo hoo!!! So I'm looking forward to improving my clinical eye as a trainer to spot out dysfunctions and correcting them. I hope to expand my knowledge base on these forums. I was planning on receiving the book Athletes: Bodies in Balance by Gray Cook and the Inside-Out DVD for my bday.....any verdicts on these? I also plan to get Low Back Disorders by Stuart McGill.
The McGill choice is a great book, I bought it for my husband. It's quite comprehensive. I/O is a great dvd as well.
It seems like you should be able to, but clinically I have found that it doesn't work. That's not to say that you don't take those principals into consideration, but it seems more ... structural than that. These folks likely have connective tissue and joint capsule changes and need more aggressive hands-on manual mobilization to get things moving properly again. And many (if desk jockey stereotypes) have a posterior pelvic tilt, no lordosis, and weak flabby abdominals!!
They tend more to stiffness and need more mobility and flexibility ... where it seems to me that many who are APT need more stability and strengthening.
Just my observations though ... and that's with a typically non-healthy population since I work in a PT clinic where I generally only see people once they've been injured. Most of them are not even remotely athletic ... and that may be the difference between what the chiropracter and I see versus what Lisa sees.
Exactly the point of my question - share your experience! I am going to sleep over what you just said and see if I have more questions.
Nicely put with the mobility/flexibility vs. stability/strengthening.
So it's only a different/harder route to altering it. Structural vs. Habitual. Stiffnes vs. Shortness. DIfferent, different, different.
Hyperlordosis in lifting
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