we were watching the weightlifting from the Olympics and a friend commented on the shoes - with the heels - and we started talking about powerlifters and their no heel shoes vs. weightlifters and their heels.
the question that came up was this:
Why the difference?
We know that doing a squat with a heel makes it easier to get depth - witness standing on plates when you are having trouble with that.
What is the downside to lifting with heels? Why don't powerlifters use shoes with a heel?
Is there a strength advantage to flats? If so - why don't weighlifters lift in flats?
For example, we know that power lifting for the squat doesn't go ATG like weightlifting - but other than not needing to go deep - is there a reason to go flat?
Both weightlifters and powerlifters need a shoe without cushioning to provide that stable surface that transfers all the force from the floor into the bar. The "wrong" kind of shoes are those with gel or air inserts that absorb force. Olympic weightlifting shoes are hard soled. The heel is elevated to allow the lifter to keep a more upright torso in the catch. A powerlifter doesn't have that issue and for the powerlifter a flat shoe helps them keep the load in their posterior chain, especially during the deadlift, but also during their low-bar, hip-dominant style squat.
Long story short: It's a different type of squat. PLing squatters open up the stance, spread the floor and place the stress on the PC and hips. Flat shoes are provide a more stable base for this type of squat. I'll let someone with more experience and knowledge on the subject go further into detail.
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This is a great topic because I just did an experiment on this, this morning and was going to post about it in a separate thread but I'll post it here.
I recently ordered a pair of Nike Free Trainers for lifting shoes and just got them yesterday. I wore them this morning deadlifting, and it made a HUGE difference for me.
I'm doing Max Strength program by Eric Cressy and he suggests a flat-sole shoe to lift in.....and I know that many others have recommended it as well, but I just never thought it really made a big difference to the average lifter.
I'm currently in week 4 of phase III which starts off with snatch-grip DL's.....I did 225lb for 2x2 and 215 for 2x4.....still weak numbers, but both are increases by 15 lbs each from last week.
It felt great too! because I felt like I could drive with my heals all the way through the lifts and actually lockout all the way at the top. It seems that my regular cross-trainers with a heal did kind of hinder performance, for me anyway.
I'm rather tall and i'm always worried or trying to critque my deadlift form, but it felt completely different and better with flatter shoes.
BTW, this is the start of a back-off week or deload.....which usually means poorer performace at the beginning of the week for me personally.
I recently ordered a pair of Nike Free Trainers for lifting shoes and just got them yesterday. I wore them this morning deadlifting, and it made a HUGE difference for me.
I'm doing Max Strength program by Eric Cressy and he suggests a flat-sole shoe to lift in.
It's always a light-bulb moment when a trainee tries flat shoes for the first time on the deadlift. It really does make a difference in keeping the load in the posterior chain. I deadlift in my Frees, too, and do all parts of my program in my Frees, from the mobility drills, deads, squats, and single-leg work, to energy system work. Eric, though, doesn't like Frees for deadlifting and squatting. They actually still have a little bit of a heel and a soft sole as well. He warms up barefoot, deads in Chucks, and does single-leg work in Frees. That's some serious consideration for your shoes right there! HA!
A heel allows many people to squat MUCH lower. Powerlifters don't need to go that low, just to parallel or so. Weightlifters need to be able to get down as low as possible so that they don't have to pull the bar up as far to catch it.
there are PLers who wear shoes w/ heals to them. Goggins comes to mind; although he's not a real "conventional" squatter....
basically PLers use a flat soled shoe because they take wide stances and spread the floor (i.e. hips and groin), and squat to parallel. It feels a lot more stable, and like you have a smaller risk of rolling your ankle if you're pushing out w/ flat shoes. Plus, most all PLers, squat in a power style, with a torso lean to it. Probably the only exception are those who compete in the IPF and have to squat lower. haha. So, the need to keep the torso vertical is not required, and is actually better when slanted because it puts the stress on the PC (hips, glutes, hamstring, back), the strongest parts.
Olympic lifters shoes were designed because of the positioning of the lifters on the catches. Lifting without a heel on jerks and such cause you to lose your balance. From dynamic elieko's site:
Quote:
The appearance in the international arena of “splitters” John Davis (USA), Norbert Schemansky (USA), Rudolf Plukfelder (USSR) and Ireneusz Palinski (POL) demonstrated to the weightlifting world it was possible to lower the body to as maximum as possible by means of the “deep “split” position under the barbell. The lifter accomplished this by noticeably bending the ankle joint of the leg placed forward. This requires tilting the shin forward significantly away from the vertical. The lifter could descend lower under the barbell.
However, it was difficult to rest the front foot flat on the floor with the shin tilted way forward. (figure of Plukfelder snatch) Nevertheless, the ankle joint has to bend (dorsiflex) significantly in order to effectively tilt the shin forward, and the lifter must flex the knee of the forward leg significantly to achieve the deepest position possible.
here's a picture that was include of a "split" snatch which is rarely ever used anymore...
see how he's on his toes w/ a flat soled shoe? if one was to wear a shoe with a heel, he wouldn't be on his toes, so more stability.
basically a shoe with a heel allows the lifter to keep their torso more vertical to the ground, so they are able to complete lifts with much more stability.
If anyone wants to read more about it, and i suggest it b/c it's really interesting, check out this link (it's got cool pics in it too)...
I squat and bench press in olympic weightlifting shoes. I deadlift in slippers, which is pretty much barefoot. I do all my other assistance work in my weightlifting shoes too.
Many powerlifters squat and bench press in shoes with heels. It is actually very common, every member of the club I train at uses them, and most of the top lifters in the country use them too. Far better for squatting and benching if you don't squat super wide, and if you squat deep.
Squatting in shoes with heels is probably beneficial for almost everybody, including many powerlifters. They are much more stable than chucks or frees, they lock your feet into place with awesome stability, and the heel reduces the flexibility needed to squat at a certain depth. I think I probably squat more in weightlifting shoes.
The only people that benefit from not having a heal are people who squat with a super wide stance, 4 inches above parallel, in multi-ply gear, which is only in some federations.
In the IPF, you'll notice most of the top lifters in the world with weightlifting shoes, as they have to go much deeper, and do not take as wide a stance as the multi-ply feds.
I think most people when they think of powerlifting think of a huge fat guy with a super wide stance, squatting about 4 inches above parallel, in multi-ply gear, and chuck taylors, like the westside guys. It's also probably what turns alot of people away from powerlifting...
But actually the worlds largest International federation is IPF, with single ply gear, strict rules, deep squats, drug testing, and many people squatting with heels!
Good stuff. From personal experience, I was barely breaking parallel before I got my OL shoes. Now I'm ATG. They make a huge stability difference, and the entire sole of the foot gets to participate in stabilizing the load.
Now, Simon, I have to ask.... do your slippers look like this?
The only people that benefit from not having a heal are people who squat with a super wide stance, 4 inches above parallel, in multi-ply gear, which is only in some federations.
If you want to squat with your quads, oly shoes are great. But if you ever want to put up serious weight (Even raw) you got to transfer the load to your PC. Some people can do this with oly shoes but most cant.
Also, multiply is not 4 inches high. It (or, it should be) right at depth like the rule book states, the ipf is the only one who doesnt follow the book
A PT recently told me that I SHOULD lift with my heels elevated(either with weightlifting shoes or plates under heels) and try keeping my torso more upright. We discussed that squatting that way would put more stress on the quads and ACL, but less stress on the lower-back. Mild stress on the ACL according to the PT is even beneficial.
We also discussed that flat shoes move your center of gravity way back. If your center of gravity goes forward, than you must stay back in order not to fall - imagine goblet squats or plate loaded front squats. So actually flat shoes will be worse on those with ankle and hip ROM limitations.
So squatting withe the heels elevated is a matter much like squatting with the knees going in front of the toes - a little is OK, excessive is bad. They are much corellated though.
I think we see the advice to get flat shoes and sit back in the squat, powerlifting style, given to general fitness trainees because the most common issue is a lack of posterior chain strength. Powerlifting style squats bring up the posterior chain and take the focus off the quads in this often quad-dominant population.
Both styles of squats have their place and purpose, depending on the needs and goals of the individual.
I want to say again, however, if your heels are elevated, it needs to be in an Olympic type hard-soled shoes, not cushioned tennis shoes. You need to feel the floor and successfully transfer force from the floor, not have it absorbed into a cushion in your shoe or have the surface you're standing on be soft and unstable.
What is the downside to lifting with heels? Why don't powerlifters use shoes with a heel?
Is there a strength advantage to flats? If so - why don't weighlifters lift in flats?
For example, we know that power lifting for the squat doesn't go ATG like weightlifting - but other than not needing to go deep - is there a reason to go flat?
Thinking of the deadlift only (and bearing in mind that I know very little about power lifting), could it be that no heels gets you a 1/2" or so lower to the ground, giving you less distance to move the bar to get to the top of the lift?
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Thinking of the deadlift only (and bearing in mind that I know very little about power lifting), could it be that no heels gets you a 1/2" or so lower to the ground, giving you less distance to move the bar to get to the top of the lift?
yes, but not only that, but it makes the lockout so much easier because in a deadlift lockout you're pulling back, and the center of gravity is not forward like it is when you're wearing shoes with a heel.
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Put me in the barefoot group ... but I train at home. I wear Frees when in public (very rare).
And as a PT I can attest to the heel-lift being beneficial for squat form. I have been re-reading Gray Cook's Athletic Body in Balance in preparation for going to his FMS course in Boston in about a week ... and some of his squat fixes involve raising the heels.
Great conversation by the way ...
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Not really ... I meant that it is rare for me to lift anywhere other than my own basement. I very rarely go to a public gym (I can count once in the past 2 years ... I met Cass Forsythe at her gym to workout).
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So let's say I plan on doing a lot of CF WOD style workouts, maybe even a WOD off of Perfromance Menu. How well do you think a pair of Nike Sparq's would hold up? I've looked at a pair of Frees before, but I've always DL'ed in whatever the hell I have on. I have a soild pair of running shoes, now I just want something that I can use as a crosstrainer (read: not weighlifting shoes).
So let's say I plan on doing a lot of CF WOD style workouts, maybe even a WOD off of Perfromance Menu. How well do you think a pair of Nike Sparq's would hold up? I've looked at a pair of Frees before, but I've always DL'ed in whatever the hell I have on. I have a soild pair of running shoes, now I just want something that I can use as a crosstrainer (read: not weighlifting shoes).
Ron
It also depends on how much you're deadlifting. Crosstrainers were fine up to about twice my bodyweight, but about then I could feel the weight pulling me forward toward my toes when I was locking out.
That was a problem. You don't want to worry about balance with 350lbs hanging there. The more weight you deadlift, the more you'll like flat shoes with little sole between you and the ground.
It got to the point where if I'd forget my flat shoes on a DL day, I'd secretly kick off my shoes between sets and hurry them back on before I was seen.
On the other hand, I can do CF-style DLs for high reps in any shoe I want.
Well I pulled 370 in a pair of Shox a month or so ago and only felt a slight pull to the front. Granted it's not 2x my BW, but I see what you're saying. I know the biomechanics, less heel, more power from the floor to the bar. But since I won't be doing any lifting for a while till my shoulder heals I was leaning twoards the cross trainers, specifically the Sparq's. I think given my current problem though, I'll just stick to a good pair of running shoes till I can do Upper-body pushing/pulling again.
Both weightlifters and powerlifters need a shoe without cushioning to provide that stable surface that transfers all the force from the floor into the bar. The "wrong" kind of shoes are those with gel or air inserts that absorb force. Olympic weightlifting shoes are hard soled. The heel is elevated to allow the lifter to keep a more upright torso in the catch. A powerlifter doesn't have that issue and for the powerlifter a flat shoe helps them keep the load in their posterior chain, especially during the deadlift, but also during their low-bar, hip-dominant style squat.
You will find that a vast number of IPF based powerlifters will wear a heeled shoe. But great that you generalise to all powerlifters based off certain american federations.
You will find that a vast number of IPF based powerlifters will wear a heeled shoe. But great that you generalise to all powerlifters based off certain american federations.
squatting & heels on shoes
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