With great, practically 100%, confidence I can say that it came from here: stubbornfatsolution
Alwyn's had a hard-on for making that concept "his" ever since Lyle showed it to him. No surprise to see him re-naming it and claiming it as his own in pure Guru-style.
Integrity? Who needs that when there's money to be made?
I am glad I saved $40 and got Lyle's stuff. His ad got me all I wanted to know, and the ad fits on one page.
Day 3--I am already sick of chicken, and I am craving carbs big time. All I want is pizza. I am getting really hungry between meals, but then when I start to eat, I lose my appetite quickly. One of the snacks that was pretty good--blueberries, peanut butter, protein powder, and a little water mixed in a bowl. Sounds and looks disgusting, but is really tasty.
The workouts aren't bad, but my legs are extremely sore from the intervals. But I was pretty de-trained coming into the program. Today's 2 circuits--step-ups/db swings and crunches/RDL were pretty taxing. I was pretty light-headed and nauseated when I was finished, and I didn't have much in the tank for the intervals. It was more of a fast jog instead of a max sprint. Definitely feeling the EPOC after today's workout.....
The program says that the body will feel "hot" for extended periods of time after the workout due to the EPOC. I don't know enough about EPOC to know if that is the case or not, but I was extremely hot for 2 hours after the workout.
PDML, in defense of Cosgroves "spot reduction" ideas, he spoke about it at my summit and gave full credit and proper citation to the studies that were the source of his info. He also qualified it as not significant, at least to the degree that the bad "Ab Blaster 9000" TV infomercials would make you think.
PDML, in defense of Cosgroves "spot reduction" ideas, he spoke about it at my summit and gave full credit and proper citation to the studies that were the source of his info. He also qualified it as not significant, at least to the degree that the bad "Ab Blaster 9000" TV infomercials would make you think.
So there are new studies that are significant enough now?
(note: not attacking. but the whole "not significant" and "let's use it as a selling point" doesn't jive together)
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PDML, in defense of Cosgroves "spot reduction" ideas, he spoke about it at my summit and gave full credit and proper citation to the studies that were the source of his info. He also qualified it as not significant, at least to the degree that the bad "Ab Blaster 9000" TV infomercials would make you think.
Also, on Mike's podcast from a while back, Alwyn says that he got it from Lyle and then referred to it as "Lyle McDonald's Stubburn Fat Loss Protocol" that he now uses with some clients.
With great, practically 100%, confidence I can say that it came from here: stubbornfatsolution
Alwyn's had a hard-on for making that concept "his" ever since Lyle showed it to him. No surprise to see him re-naming it and claiming it as his own in pure Guru-style.
Integrity? Who needs that when there's money to be made?
Thank you so much for this link. Now here is a product I don't mind spending the money on and the ad doesn't attack my intelligence either. Natalie, you say you have this book? Was it especially useful to you? I should be at the 15% bf point in a few weeks and will start SFPing it down to 10% at that point. The more information I have the better.
Let's turn this thread around. I like what Maxx is able to share with us, I like sharing other sources that are helpful on this topic, but you are unqualified to bash a product you haven't seen. If you have seen it, feel free to give us your opinion. But we are not here to bash Alwyn or Mike.
And PMDL, who says Lyle isn't getting his own kickback for having his protocol in the product? Maybe that's why it's $80?
And really, those people who work with trainers, I would be they pay at least $80 for 28 days of personal training. After buying this product you can do it as many times as you want to and don't ever have to pay again...not so with a trainer.
All I am really trying to do is see if there is anything positive we can say without the constant nagging and bitching.
I'm on Day 3 also and I got to agree with Maxx that I'm feeling pretty sore and don't have much left in the tank for the intervals after completing the circuits. I'm keeping a log of everything so I'll let you all know how it works out.
I'm on Day 3 also and I got to agree with Maxx that I'm feeling pretty sore and don't have much left in the tank for the intervals after completing the circuits. I'm keeping a log of everything so I'll let you all know how it works out.
Day 3 here also. Today's workout was hard. I was very glad there was only three rounds of intervals instead of 6! I definitely have some fatigue but nothing I didn't expect considering I was eating a fairly high carb diet before. Things should get better in a few days. I have not been hungry once though.
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AM, homeschooling mom to Wild & Wacky, see my fitness journey here, my training log here and my everything else blog here.
Consistent practice equals consistent progress.
Let's turn this thread around. I like what Maxx is able to share with us, I like sharing other sources that are helpful on this topic, but you are unqualified to bash a product you haven't seen. If you have seen it, feel free to give us your opinion. But we are not here to bash Alwyn or Mike.
And PMDL, who says Lyle isn't getting his own kickback for having his protocol in the product? Maybe that's why it's $80?
And really, those people who work with trainers, I would be they pay at least $80 for 28 days of personal training. After buying this product you can do it as many times as you want to and don't ever have to pay again...not so with a trainer.
All I am really trying to do is see if there is anything positive we can say without the constant nagging and bitching.
Your intent is admirable but I find value in openly discussing this topic if you don't mind. I don't see so much bashing as discovery going on here. I too am intersted to hear about the positive results from those trying the product as I am a customer to such a thing if it does make sense.
Oh and about the trainers and cost... It is more like 80 dollars (or in my case more) an hour so this is obviously not about the money at all to someone like me.... It is about discovery and truth.
The program says that the body will feel "hot" for extended periods of time after the workout due to the EPOC. I don't know enough about EPOC to know if that is the case or not, but I was extremely hot for 2 hours after the workout.
Your intent is admirable but I find value in openly discussing this topic if you don't mind. I don't see so much bashing as discovery going on here. I too am intersted to hear about the positive results from those trying the product as I am a customer to such a thing if it does make sense.
Oh and about the trainers and cost... It is more like 80 dollars (or in my case more) an hour so this is obviously not about the money at all to someone like me.... It is about discovery and truth.
So what's untrue about what Alwyn and Mike have put together? You may not like his marketing methods, his marketing methods may be so deplorable and demeaning to you that you no longer spend one penny on his products (and please let's not getting on that Barbaro again), but you can't really argue that he doesn't get results...and isn't that what you and I would pay for?
If by "truth" you are referring to the Lyle McDonald protocol usage without his name on it, how to heck do you know that Lyle and Alwyn/Mike haven't been given license to use it? Is it even "licensed" in the first place? I really don't know the legalities of it. But don't you think the ones it would impact (Alwyn and Mike) would do a bit of research to make it not reflect poorly on themselves?
And finally, I don't really appreciate your tone Karla. I feel like you don't understand how to have an open discussion if this is your example of it. In a discussion where you don't know all the answers and haven't seen the specific product in question, it's more helpful to ask questions. I'm not saying you can't have your opinions, but stating the same blasting opinions over and over is NOT a discussion.
RW: Just to be very clear, I have not stated one way or another what my truth is on this topic.
I have stated that I do not agree with the way the Cosgrove product is marketed. I also questioned the "safety" of what he was doing given his NROLW concepts. The concepts just seemed to conflict. That doesn't mean that I do not think that there are some good elements to the program and I am really interested in hearing about those.
The Lyle McDonald one I was unfamiliar with and am happy to have discovered this through this thread and the open discussion going on in this thread. This book is more to what I would like to have in that it isn't a stamped program on fat loss. It is a book with information about concepts. Since I do pay a trainer, a stamped program is probably not something I could use. Concepts (on the other hand) are something I could always use. If the Cosgrove concepts stems from these, then I get two birds with one 40 dollar purchase. As a bonus, I also find the marketing clear and intelligent on this product but that is a very small part of why I find the product better for my needs.
I also do not see where I am stating the same opinions over and over nor that we are not having a fair discussion. It may not be to your liking but I am personally finding it a highly useful thread and learning from it so I hope you can allow it to continue and allow people to communicate in their own way so long as it remains somewhat respectful.
RW: Just to be very clear, I have not stated one way or another what my truth is on this topic.
If I had the time I would go through and quote your 8 posts in this thread that indicate to me what your truth is on this product. But I don't so we can agree to disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfisherx
I have stated that I do not agree with the way the Cosgrove product is marketed. I also questioned the "safety" of what he was doing given his NROLW concepts. The concepts just seemed to conflict. That doesn't mean that I do not think that there are some good elements to the program and I am really interested in hearing about those.
What good elements have you questioned?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfisherx
The Lyle McDonald one I was unfamiliar with and am happy to have discovered this through this thread and the open discussion going on in this thread. This book is more to what I would like to have in that it isn't a stamped program on fat loss. It is a book with information about concepts. Since I do pay a trainer, a stamped program is probably not something I could use. Concepts (on the other hand) are something I could always use. If the Cosgrove concepts stems from these, then I get two birds with one 40 dollar purchase. As a bonus, I also find the marketing clear and intelligent on this product but that is a very small part of why I find the product better for my needs.
That's fine, but I have never seen you say that you are looking for concepts until today. This product is not a concept communicator. It is based on concepts that they show you how to implement to reduce your fat in 28 days. It's what you ALREADY pay your trainer to do...implement the concepts that he/she knows. So to compare a book on how and why bellyfat is hard to loose and a specific short term fat fix is not fair, IMO. All fitness products are not the same.
I got this in an email this morning and thought of this thread and about the part of the discussion on cost relating to "value" of a program...
“What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.”
Thomas Paine b.1737-1809 US patriot & political philosopher
I believe he is talking about sacrifice.
Obviously, neither of us is going to change our opinion on this subject. However, I will list two examples of relatively cheap products in the fitness field that I value highly. The first are several booklets by Bryce Lane. They cost around $14 and are chock full of information. The second would be the books that I ordered from Ross Enamait. Around $30 a piece and I have yet see another fitness book that surpasses the info in these books.
I have stated that I do not agree with the way the Cosgrove product is marketed. I also questioned the "safety" of what he was doing given his NROLW concepts. The concepts just seemed to conflict. That doesn't mean that I do not think that there are some good elements to the program and I am really interested in hearing about those.
The two programs have different goals. NROL4W is a general fitness program (his words) and WSFL is a drop as much fat as possible in the shortest amount of time program. NROL4W was designed to be a long running, sustainable program. WSFL was designed to be as intense as you can handle for 28 days.
Different goals, different purposes, different concepts. At least that is how I see it.
They also make it clear that this program is not designed for someone that is out of shape or significantly overweight.
__________________
AM, homeschooling mom to Wild & Wacky, see my fitness journey here, my training log here and my everything else blog here.
Consistent practice equals consistent progress.
If I had the time I would go through and quote your 8 posts in this thread that indicate to me what your truth is on this product. But I don't so we can agree to disagree.
I have reviewed these, and we can agree to disagree. At this point I am only suggesting that just because you don't agree with a way of communicating that it should not be the basis for shutting down the ongoing discussion. There is still value in the discussion even if you find it to be not to your style.
The two programs have different goals. NROL4W is a general fitness program (his words) and WSFL is a drop as much fat as possible in the shortest amount of time program. NROL4W was designed to be a long running, sustainable program. WSFL was designed to be as intense as you can handle for 28 days.
Different goals, different purposes, different concepts. At least that is how I see it.
They also make it clear that this program is not designed for someone that is out of shape or significantly overweight.
Yep I get that.
I was only shocked early on when I read that somebody was eating under 1100 cals a day. I was shocked at how the method of getting to fast fat loss is so vastly different and even contradictory to the methods advocated in NROLW. It is the same person but yet so different in messaging and general principle. I would not have believed it was the same person writing these two programs.
My own trainer recently had this discussion with me RE my own goals to get to a low bf%. His words to me are that he is not going to change his general principles about what is healthy even if I am willing to kill myself to get what I want.
I don't know but it seems to me that things like common sense healthy ways are binary. They are good always to do. Not good unless you want to drop fat fast or good only if you have a lot of weight to lose. That is the issue I had when I first read that caloric intake was so low. I read over and again how this type of lower calories can be harmful to an athlete. Naturally, I am left wondering if there were any health risks that one takes in doing this sort of program even for a short time. It seems to me that there might be since it isn't good to do in general and since there are so many warnings about doing it longer than 28 days.
Perhaps it is the case that there are risks but people generally are willing to take those risks in order to get the results they want. Perhaps it is the case that there is really no risk. I don't know...
The WSFL plan calls for 9 calories per pound of bodyweight. I weigh 175, so I'm getting almost 1700 calories. When I typically cut calories to lose weight, I try to stay between 1500 and 1800, so this program to me isn't any extreme low-calorie plan......instead it is helping me make healthier choices to achieve my goals.
The WSFL plan calls for 9 calories per pound of bodyweight. I weigh 175, so I'm getting almost 1700 calories. When I typically cut calories to lose weight, I try to stay between 1500 and 1800, so this program to me isn't any extreme low-calorie plan......instead it is helping me make healthier choices to achieve my goals.
In my calculator you should be at 1575, not 1700?
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Hey, good observation! I guess that goes to show that guesstimating by multiplying 170x10 in your head won't give you a real accurate answer Anyway, as I've said before, I've struggled to finish some of the meals. It seems that I am eating a lot more than I usually do. Big difference when you eat nutrient dense food as opposed to refined carbs.
MAXX--Are you following the meal plans or the template outlining protein, starch, fruit/veg, and fats? I am following the template and find that 9cal/pound is very accurate but it is my understanding that the meal plans may include more calories.
Obviously, neither of us is going to change our opinion on this subject. However, I will list two examples of relatively cheap products in the fitness field that I value highly. The first are several booklets by Bryce Lane. They cost around $14 and are chock full of information. The second would be the books that I ordered from Ross Enamait. Around $30 a piece and I have yet see another fitness book that surpasses the info in these books.
Good point on the sacrifice aspect.
I'm a huge Ross Enamait supporter (and I agree on how valuable those books are, too). I have a lot of valuable fitness products that are pretty inexpensive (TAP, NROL, etc.).
Here's my take. I don't think more money is really the key for everyone. I think it's a no brainer for a group (or groups) of people.
No decisions to make. The program might as well be a trainer telling you what to do. The cost helps support that, either consciously or subconsciously.
Plus, inversely, the cost helps to insure that you're serious about it. If you're going to half-ass it, you have some self-doubt about your resolve to finish/follow the program, you won't be willing to shell out $80.
I'll bet that Mike and Alwyn decided to charge more for this BECAUSE they wanted to weed out the people who weren't serious. A higher percentage of serious people helps support them on round two, because lots more people just succeeded with the program and will be willing to provide testimony. Also, fewer less serious people means less support and fewer complaints. Complaints and support are time drainers. Plus, complainers tell people who might otherwise have purchased and succeeded. There's a magical price for every product, it's finding it that's hard.
Lots of people really don't know what to do or have failed with their own programs. With summer looming, they might even be desperate. $80 for a program that is more likely to succeed than their own designed scheme is lookin' pretty good.
It seems like I had another point, but I can't recall it.
I understand what you (nanook) are saying. I think there are plenty of people that are more like you. I'm somewhere in between the people I'm talking about and you. I'm not buying it, either. I think that plenty of people will buy it. Why they are willing to pay $80 is the question, but they are willing.
That's why we buy products. I don't think since TAP that either Otto or I have been without the knowlege to make our own program. But for times when time or motivation is limited, having to make a program yourself is just one more reason to put off getting into the gym. And my trainer costs me $50-$70 a session. So yeah... it's definitely easier to just follow someone else's plan, esp someone I respect and trust. If I constantly wanted to make up my own shit I'd supplement by selling it. Why the hell not? I mean, if all it is about is knowing how to set up a relatively balanced program and following it for a bit. Oh, wait... I've not actually been through the schooling and experience that others have... I've just read some stuff on the internet for a few years.
There's always the DIY people. And kudos to them for being that way. Of course, some of those people think they know their shit when maybe they don't. It takes more than a photoshop class or bed-in-a-bag to make a designer, it takes more than an MS certification to make one a good programmer.
Which is, I think, the leap some people can't make when trying to understand how this sort of thing can work/be safe/etc. They know what they've read, what's been drilled into them... but not being people who've been doing this thing for a living for years, with perhaps a degree or something... they maybe don't know the ins and outs that makes something like this a working program. And since they don't get to ask the authors in person, they simply speculate based on what they think they know... both about the authors and about biology.
Anyway, as I've said before, I've struggled to finish some of the meals. It seems that I am eating a lot more than I usually do. Big difference when you eat nutrient dense food as opposed to refined carbs.
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