I purchased the program, and I agree that there are numerous typos. Also, some of the things don't seem to mesh--for example, there are some differences between what they say in the training description section and the exercise library.
I'm going to try and start this Monday, if I can get all the groceries. The workouts look pretty easy to me, tho I have not been working out the past few months. The hardest part for me is going to be the dietary changes, but I am looking at it as a 28 day challenge, which will hopefully keep me motivated. The price is a bit steep, but I like having something completely laid out for me with no thinking involved.
Gabe didn't say the program wasn't any good\effective, so let's be cautious about defending arguments that weren't made in the first place. He said that he could have find a program for half the price that would probably work as well (Such as the one that Alwyn personally recommended as being the best ever).
Defiant1- Thanks, I missed your post. Just for the record I don't think the book necessarily "should" provide an after diet plan, it's not marketed as such...just a one month plan, so that's cool. I just wondered.
IMO the lack of definition on who these products are appropriate for is part of the problems why people are disappointed in dropping $100 on something that wasn't meant for you...then getting flogged on a forum for not knowing ahead of time that something that was marketed to death in front of you wasn't appropriate for you....duhhh...dumbass (in jest, not intended towards anyone or hurt anyone's feelings). That's one thing I like about Lyle McDonald's stuff. It's very specific in scope, the intended audience is normally very obvious, you're buying information not a program. So you can take what you learn and apply it across other aspects of your happy little world.
I'm assuming it's a great program because I know the names behind the product. I'm even tempted to try, cause I'd love to drop 7lbs before the summit :P
To further Kaiser's allegory...it's like buying that Tiffany's jewelery at K-mart, but not even discounted, and it comes in a box, but not the signature box. But, it's still a genuine Tiffany's. Now go give it to your wife without that blue box, or go send your friends to K-mart to get one too.
Now if I've never heard of Tiffany's and stumble across it when I'm out shopping at K-mart, and see that it looks like a good product and has good promising results, I'd probably buy it. I figure anything's worth a try and I sure would like to loose some fat quickly.
To further Kaiser's allegory...it's like buying that Tiffany's jewelery at K-mart, but not even discounted, and it comes in a box, but not the signature box. But, it's still a genuine Tiffany's. Now go give it to your wife without that blue box, or go send your friends to K-mart to get one too.
Which again is horrible marketing, and I don't think that analogy fits your point.
I'm not seeing a single perspective change due to this discussion, because underneath the surface is the whole "guru" debate that's been going on for years.
Those who don't like the guru pedestal are criticizing the pricing/presentation of this new product.
Those who defend the guru pedestal think the pricing/presenation are justified and smart business.
From what I can tell the minds were already made up before any of us actually read the material. Is that accurate?
__________________ Megaloi -- My Blog
"Every society honors its live conformists and its dead troublemakers."
- Mignon McLaughlin
Marketing = dead horse. Let's just pretend like absolutely nothing is going to change and everyone has their reasons for doing what they do and liking what they like.
If you buy it and are happy...let people know. Same goes if you aren't. If it's super fantastic then people should be made aware so that they too can take part in the super fantasticness. If you have criticism then perhaps the authors might take it into consideration for future products. IMO that is the power of the consumer.
We've got a training log section, set up a log and share your experience with others!
Alwyn made a post on another forum (StrengthCoach) taking about the long letter style copy. He mentioned that he has tried selling a product without the long ad copy to his e-mail list and saw moderate success, then about 3 months later re-did the website to long letter and resent it out to the same e-mail list and saw way more sales from the same group of people. For every product he has attempted it has always worked better, so obviously he continues to use it.
Danny
That is true for regular people but when I hear that stuff is being sold to coaches that are professionals with the same ad copy I cry BS.
I agree. Marketing discussion is a dead horse. I guess that's why I finally jumped in...cause I'm sick of reading about it. Maybe I was hoping it would beat the horse enough so we could stop talking about it
I'd be interested to know how the product works for folks.
Quote:
Posted by Red Lefty: Which again is horrible marketing, and I don't think that analogy fits your point.
that was my point...product good...marketing bad FOR ME. If me no likey marketing, then product not focused to me. Me no likey marketing, me no wanty send my friends to that page for fear they think I'm sending them to infomercial. Me thinky alwyn and mike putty outty good stuff, so Im sure it's a gem, just me no likey the longy copy. Me guessing they use the technique cause it worky for them. MOre power to them. I hope they sell lots of copies.
So says you. And that's my entire point about the marketing criticisms: every single one is based on the statement "I don't like the way that is marketed". Great - everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but my response to that from a marketers standpoint is that it doesn't matter much what any one of us individuals thinks if a) we're not the primary target market to which the marketing is addressed (and I don't know if we are, but we can't assume we are) and b) it works for the target demographic (and apparently it does, given what Danny and JP have mentioned about it).
The criticism is fine, and Alwyn would be wise to take note of it if a) we are his target demographic, or b) we wield so much word of mouth authority on the internet that it would adversely affect his sales. Just looking at the product, I'm not sure either of these is the case (although Alwyn would have the last word anyway). So if it isn't the case that either of the above is true, he would be foolish to change his marketing strategy because we make so much fuss about it.
All that being said, I agree with Tony's point that all of this is talking about the window dressing and detracts from the substantive talk of the actual product itself.
Can I just say that RL said essentially the same thing in 5 sentances and 1 question...so technically 6 statments?
If you TOO want to learn how to receive credit after blatantly rewording a previous post, sign up to receive my FREE* newsletter and prepare for HUGE gains in misplaced PRAISE today!**
*After a $79.99 donation
**Claims are not accurate or substantiated by reality
But, just to give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you can provide us with the last successful marketing campaign you've run?
You're honestly calling out my credentials!
I've got the education with both graduate and undergraduate degrees in business and marketing. I've successfully developed service based marketing plans for consulting services in 3 different countries. I've managed employees and contractors in 5. In my free time I've also recently been working with a trainer on implementing a more traditional marketing approach. I'm happy to report that sales are doing significantly better than when the long form was used.
I would love to give you examples of the marketing plans I have written but that wouldn't be fair to any of the employees who depend on me and my partners to successfully execute them. Giving away proprietary information would be bad form and probably illegal. I apologize that I can't be more specific but when people's livelihood are are stake that's the best you're going to get out of me. OK maybe not. There are certain hand gestures that come to mind.
__________________
Past performance is not indicative of future success.
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
I've got the education with both graduate and undergraduate degrees in business and marketing. I've successfully developed service based marketing plans for consulting services in 3 different countries. I've managed employees and contractors in 5. In my free time I've also recently been working with a trainer on implementing a more traditional marketing approach. I'm happy to report that sales are doing significantly better than when the long form was used.
I would love to give you examples of the marketing plans I have written but that wouldn't be fair to any of the employees who depend on me and my partners to successfully execute them. Giving away proprietary information would be bad form and probably illegal. I apologize that I can't be more specific but when people's livelihood are are stake that's the best you're going to get out of me. OK maybe not. There are certain hand gestures that come to mind.
__________________
*****************************
Walk on
With hope in your heart
And You'll Never Walk Alone
*****************************
There's no free lunch, especially when it's served with special sauce (lostdog)
***************************** My Log - PC Plod
I have no idea what your credentials are. So, yeah, pretty much because, really, criticizing Ryan Lee's approach (or people who use it) when a better alternative is not offered smacks of being very unprofessional. I was assuming you were in the marketing industry from what you've intoned before, so I was a bit surprised when you started being critical of his methods like that, since the proof is in the pudding. It's easy to be critical... it's hard to be critical with something that is successful. It's even harder to be critical and offer a better alternative. It's downright irresponsible to be critical if you don't have the chops to back it up. I'm glad that you do.
What makes you and expert K? Gabe is an "expert" in his field, so that means you can't criticize him since it is not fine to criticize a fitness "experts". Do you get kickbacks, get to be in the "cirlce" with them like Larabee, or what? You always have an answer to everything and you are always right, so there is no point for Gabe to even bother replying.
I don't think it's fair to toss Kaiser into some mysterious circle of "evil greedy trainers and their lackeys" simply because he doesn't have a problem with their marketing methods.
If you want to knock certain methods, feel free, but personally "calling out" Alwyn, Ryan Lee or Kaiser is a little weird to me. It's business, people are trying to make a living... some people may know better, but I'm not convinced it's really a decisive factor in establishing an individual's quality!
Gabe has a perspective that most of the rest of us do not have. So I think his views should be heard. But again, let's not get personal. He's not leading Alwyn's campaign, and he's not leading a competitor's campaign either. As far as I know, none of us here have stock in Cosgrove, Inc. So let's not get all crazy over this.
No kickbacks laxcdn, no financial interests, I don't even know the 'experts' (except Hartman - I do know him). All I'm doing is pointing out that criticism of the marketing techniques without any basis other than personal opinion is not reason enough for someone to change their marketing tact, especially if that tact has a proven track record.
As for my own experience, it's a fair question:
-18 years of practicing marketing at a B2B level for industrial products and retail level for consumer products. The last 11 practicing in my own biz of which I am the owner and president, and which sells both B2B and retail. I run this company with offices in 2 different continents (US and Asia).
-the last 12 years being an adjunct professor teaching marketing (and management and international business) at the university level (Northeastern Illinois University to be exact).
-I have my graduate degree in marketing from the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business. I've been a speaker on marketing at events at the GSB as recently as last year.
-I'm currently writing 2 papers for publication on international marketing of consumer products. My university department heads and a few colleagues want me to expand those into full-fledged dissertation research, but I don't see the value in getting a doctorate at this time.
-For the last two summers, I've been requested to go to a university in China and teach a 3 week course in Beijing on American marketing. Thus far, I've refused because it's the only time I have to spend with my young kids when they are on summer vacation.
So marketing is how I make my bread and butter, so to speak, and in more than one way. I'm not an expert either - I continue to learn everyday, but I do get paid to teach people about marketing. It's also why I try to speak up when people say 'I don't like the marketing, therefore it must suck'. It's not that simple and a basic marketing error is assuming you are the prototypical target customer. It's also why I wanted to see what Gabe was proposing as an alternative and what, specifically and from a marketing (not a consumer) perspective that he found wrong with the RL method. Since he can look at it from a professional angle, I was interested in what his suggestions were.
PS: Thanks Ian. I think the vitriol has gotten ridiculous as of late.
So why are you always so far up these guys asses? All you seem to do is brown nose everyone from JP to all the experts?
When you can rephrase your question to be a bit less offensive, I'll answer. Also, examples of your allegations would be helpful because I don't believe I've done anything of the sort. Not calling someone names doesn't mean you are 'brown nosing' - it's simply treating people with the respect with which you'd like to be treated.
I am sorry to offend you:O Let's start with defending them whenever someone opposes them. Anytime someone questions a theory, marketing, workout, diet, etc you come to their rescue.
Like I said, examples please. I've done nothing of the sort. I'm guessing you're confusing me with someone else. All I try to point out is [once again - sigh] just because someone or a group of people doesn't like a particular marketing method, that doesn't necessarily mean it is a) a bad or ineffective method, or b) necessarily any indication of the quality of the actual product. People here don't like Ryan Lee's methods, but he gets results. Hard to argue with that if you are a fitness pro with a product to market.
When Tony buys and reviews a product, you don't see me comment on that because he's taken the time to get it and try the actual product. He's gone beyond the actual packaging (although he comments on that too) to looking at a product.
By the same token, there are people here who apparently seem to enjoy bashing the purveyors of those products simply because they use what these people consider 'cheesy' marketing. Fine as long as that is their opinion - where I speak up is where they start saying that it is shitty marketing - based solely on their own and their friends' opinions, not based on any subjective measure of what would be considered good marketing strategy. And, really, I only spoke up here to Gabe to ask him because he is in that field and can give a more serious critique than 'I don't like it; he could do better'.
As far as your allegations, like I said, examples would go a long way in showing me what you are alleging. Otherwise, I'm simply trying to be respectful and give people the benefit of the doubt.
I am not going to take the time to go back through posts to prove anything. I know you will take that as I can't find it, but I am not wasting any time to prove you wrong. I know that people agree with me.
You posted calling out Gabe so that someone would call you out so you could post your credentials. Sometimes I think you just like to see your name out there so that people don't forget you are here.
Tony does a great job of those, but when he first started people were all over him cause he wasn't an expert and how can he criticize them.
THis place use to be great, and I loved coming here. Then the "experts" came and everyone got divided and some didn't like the questioning and ran away. ie Dos. I wish things didn't change but they did. I am sure people don't like me cause I say what needs to be said sometimes. I am sure no one will miss me if I don't come back, so I will try to stick to the Off Topic or not bother at all.
(in jest, not intended towards anyone or hurt anyone's feelings). That's one thing I like about Lyle McDonald's stuff. It's very specific in scope, the intended audience is normally very obvious, you're buying information not a program. So you can take what you learn and apply it across other aspects of your happy little world.
Linear Mode
