Overhead Squat Question

[Hunter]

For the last couple of months I've been doing OL variations based on the workouts in Dos's book, but I am having a hell of a time with the OH squat. Other than doing the OHS, what are other exercises/drills/etc. to get the mobility to get to the proper form at the bottom of the squat? (Tina's avatar is what I have in mind.) When I start going down, my elbows don't want to stay locked and the bar is more above my head than behind it.

[Hunter]

Oops - didn't mean to post this in the log section. Please move.

[Alcoholiday]

if i was to guess, i would say that your shoulder flexibility isn't there yet. I still have a hell of a time with overhead squats. When i first started, my shoulder flexibility was so bad, and i couldn't hold it in the right position.

They are probably the hardest squat there is. One thing to help shoulder flexibility are shoulder dislocates. It gets your traps/shoudlers loose. That, and tightening your upper back, (think, pinching your traps), when the weight is overhead.

Also, if you do a typical power squat, you will lose the weight forward. You need to get in the practice of squatting down, and between your legs, not hips/ass back knees out.

don't keep adding weight. Start with a broom stick. Do dislocates, shoulder circles, etc. Then do overhead squat work with just the broomstick, and concentrate on what i said with pinching your upper back. This will make the weight feel a lot more stable. Once you get the form down with a broomstick, it will be lots better.

Maybe the other olifters on here have some other tips.

[PowerManDL]

Ankle mobility.

Work the shoulder girdle. Sink into a full squat and reach upwards and overhead one arm at a time. Same w/ two arms.

OH squatting w/ a broomstick is good, also look into Sots pressing (sink to the bottom and do a dumbbell press). Slow drop-snatching, where you press the bar overhead as you go into the squat, can work as well.

[Buk]

Alco mentioned pinching your traps, I think this has the same result but may be a much easier way to understand that: try to pull the bar/broomstick appart. Put as much effort into trying to stretch the bar out as you can and it will lock your arms and shoulders into the perfect position.

[MindPower]

In regards to pulling the broomstick apart,
I use a band instead of a broom stick, it makes it really obvious if your pulling it apart or not.
For the more clever folks, is it (the band) a good idea and would it help with shoulder stability in the o/h position??

[GqArtguy]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Oops - didn't mean to post this in the log section. Please move.

Wrong subforum noob! haha

Im not a fan of shoulder dislocates.

Now, if you can get into a rock bottom squat (a real one, none of that shit they post on t-fag) then its just a matter of messing with your upperbody. Otherwise, work on your leg flexibility, ankle mobility, etc.

As for the upper body, thoracic extensions are good for opening up the upper back, stretching your lats and pecs if it keels like its drifting forward, and also shrug while doing the OH squat and try to pull the bar apart.

[Alcoholiday]

i forgot to ask the very very basic question as well. how wide is your grip? If you're not using a snatch grip (for me, hands to the collars), it'll be near impossible for you to overhead squat.

Why aren't you a fan of dislocates, Manny?

[LisaS]

have you seen the crossfit article about shoulder health illustrated with the extreme flexible shoulder OHS ? Here's the picture:



(Not that this is a preferred form for general strength lifting - your mention of snatch grip reminded me of the picture from way back)

[GqArtguy]

Originally Posted by Alcoholiday

i forgot to ask the very very basic question as well. how wide is your grip? If you're not using a snatch grip (for me, hands to the collars), it'll be near impossible for you to overhead squat.

Why aren't you a fan of dislocates, Manny?

From Siff:

**Note that dislocates can also traumatise the shoulder joint and it is essential that the different ways of "dislocating" the shoulder are understood. The word "dislocates" provides a clue as to the less desirable way of executing this allegedly appropriate stretching manoeuvre for the shoulder joints, because dislocation of the shoulder refers clinically to the passive forcing of a joint beyond its normal range of active movement, usually resulting in damage to the joint capsule and ligaments.

If you insist on using "dislocates" as a form of shoulder "stretching", then it is vital to note that it is far better to develop flexibility-strength throughout one's entire functional range rather than simply to enhance one's flexibility or rage of movement. Thus, if you are using a broomstick, towel or bungy cord, do not simply allow the arms to "flop" or jerk uncomfortably passively backwards as is commonly the case, because you would then be executing just the sort of passive external rotation of the rotator cuff muscles which can lead to injury or damage to the capsule, ligaments and muscles associated with the shoulder joint. The shoulders really don't
"like" that sort of movement unless you are very well conditioned or genetically endowed to execute it in that manner. When you "dislocate", push strongly against the broomstick and exert steady outward force to pull the stick or bungy apart.

However, a far better way of enhancing 'functional' shoulder flexibility and strength is to use a hi-low pulley machine to do standing cable crossovers from a full crucifix position (back to the machine) with your body arched backwards to a fully crunched over final position. Next you execute reverse
cable crossovers facing the machine - start from the lowest crunched position and end with hands overhead in the crucifix position.

You can also do these movements with one arm at a time to execute the age-old
physio PNF 'chopping' and the 'sword-drawing' actions across the midline of
the body (now don't let any gurus out there create the impression that they invented these exercises, because they have been in the PNF 'bible" for over 40 years!). Novices and older folk tend to prefer to start with these variations before moving onto the more stressful bilateral patterns. These patterns are fully illustrated in Ch 7 of "Supertraining" 2003.

Finally, overhead squats (elbows locked strongly!) with the bar and progressively heavier weights can safely enhance shoulder strength and flexibility (a few sets of no more than 3 reps per set is adequate). Begin with hands very wide apart and very gradually bring your hands in if you really want to increase shoulder flexibility-strength (yes, yes, you can do some work on the gymnastic rings or parallel bars, but let's leave that issue until later!)

Note that a broomstick doesn't offer enough loading to challenge the shoulders in the overhead position, nor does it stimulate various protective reflexes (which is a major reason why passive dislocates can be potentially harmful to the shoulders). Thus, paradoxical as it may seem, it is generally
safer to do overhead squats (even over a limited range) with a load than it is to do unloaded dislocates, unless you really know how to execute safe and effective dislocates

Dr Mel C Siff
Denver, USA

[Alcoholiday]

Originally Posted by LisaS

have you seen the crossfit article about shoulder health illustrated with the extreme flexible shoulder OHS ? Here's the picture:



(Not that this is a preferred form for general strength lifting - your mention of snatch grip reminded me of the picture from way back)

this says it all.

[karky]

wow, never seen sots press before, it looks really cool! Too bad I can't get into a rock bottom squat with a very upright back position Need to go work some mobility

[UConnJulie]

Nice tips in here guys ... thanks!! This is a difficult lift for me ... I always feel like I am pitching forward. For me I think it is hip/ankle mobility.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Alcoholiday

i forgot to ask the very very basic question as well. how wide is your grip? If you're not using a snatch grip (for me, hands to the collars), it'll be near impossible for you to overhead squat.

I'm using a wide-grip, but not all the way out to the collars - I'll have to try that.

I did a little experimenting at home last night, and I could feel how it might be a matter of hip mobility as well as shoulder flexibility. As you said earlier, "You need to get in the practice of squatting down, and between your legs." I'm not doing this.

Where's Lisa~ with a link showing how to do dislocates? (Although that name scares me a little along with Gq's reference above.)

[Mon]

I have trouble with the overhead squat too, so I have not been doing it. When I try and squat down, my knees want to go over my toes, which is a no no. Maybe its a lack of hip mobility for me and posterior chain strength.


Hey Hunter, here is a video link I found through youtube showing how to do overhead broomstick dislocations.

YouTube - Shoulder dislocations


By the way - does your knees do the same thing mine does when using weight? I have also tried a one arm overhead squat with dumbbells and my body shifts to the side that I am holding the dumbbell on. I think for me its defiantly a lack of hip mobility. I am not sure about ankle mobility though because my toes are always straight ahead. I always look down at my toes before starting any lift to make sure they are lined up perfectly and adjust my feet position if I need to.

[Alcoholiday]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I'm using a wide-grip, but not all the way out to the collars - I'll have to try that.

I did a little experimenting at home last night, and I could feel how it might be a matter of hip mobility as well as shoulder flexibility. As you said earlier, "You need to get in the practice of squatting down, and between your legs." I'm not doing this.

Where's Lisa~ with a link showing how to do dislocates? (Although that name scares me a little along with Gq's reference above.)

well, it depends on how long your arms are. If you're short, and have short arms, you won't need to go out to the collars. I'm 6'3" and have around 6' wingspan, so i need to go out to the collars. This feels better for me, because i can press against the sides of the collars for more balance.

if you don't want to do dislocates, just do a lot of other shoulder mobility work. Arm Circles, and lots and lots of practice holding the bar in the right position while squatting.

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I'm using a wide-grip, but not all the way out to the collars - I'll have to try that.

I did a little experimenting at home last night, and I could feel how it might be a matter of hip mobility as well as shoulder flexibility. As you said earlier, "You need to get in the practice of squatting down, and between your legs." I'm not doing this.

Where's Lisa~ with a link showing how to do dislocates? (Although that name scares me a little along with Gq's reference above.)

HA. I wouldn't link you to dislocates because I wouldn't recommend that you do them! Any of the stuff from I/O would help with shoulder mobility, especially as warm-ups. Thoracic extensions every day. I like the band idea to get into the habit of pulling the bar apart. You've gotten great advice so far.

I agree that you've got to get away from a powerlifting style squat. Think of O-lifters and their style when you're doing OH squats. This is an assistance exercise for the snatch, so that's the only style squat that's going to work. OH squats are tough! Keep working on them!