O-lifts for athletes

[coach hale]

Should competitive athletes (other than Olympic Weightlifters) perform O-lifts (or derivatives)? This question has been debated for some time. Some coaches insist all athletes need the O-lifts while others suggest they are useless for athletes other than Olympic Weightlifters. In my opinion the correct answer is it depends on the athlete. If the athlete enjoys the movements, is receiving benefits and not inducing injury sure. On the other hand if the athlete seems to be inflicting damage and is spending too much time attempting to learn the skill-set the answer is no.

thanks
Coach Hale
www.maxcondition.com

[PowerManDL]

I think that, as always, it's dependent on the athlete, the needs of the sport, and the coach.

Like you said, if they can be coached properly (which isn't hard with a basic power clean/snatch, but could be a serious problem for a full squat clean/snatch), and the sport requires that kind of explosiveness, why not?

I don't think a non-OLer should necessarily go to the effort of becoming a technical expert in the lifts, because that can take quite some time and the return on investment won't be very high. If you've got a guy that knows the lifts, I doubt he'll be worse for it; I just question the judgment of teaching them. The power clean/snatch are a different matter, you can teach those in an hour w/o much trouble. Start at the hang, jump, shrug, keep the arms straight, elbows up on the catch.

But I can easily see cases where this wouldn't hold true. That being the case, explosive clean/snatch pulls w/o the catch, jumps (weighted and unweighted), and even sprints could be an acceptable alternative, depending on the sport in question.

In short, I see them as being contextually useful, but not absolutely necessary.

[Alcoholiday]

Originally Posted by PowerManDL

I think that, as always, it's dependent on the athlete, the needs of the sport, and the coach.

Like you said, if they can be coached properly (which isn't hard with a basic power clean/snatch, but could be a serious problem for a full squat clean/snatch), and the sport requires that kind of explosiveness, why not?

I don't think a non-OLer should necessarily go to the effort of becoming a technical expert in the lifts, because that can take quite some time and the return on investment won't be very high. If you've got a guy that knows the lifts, I doubt he'll be worse for it; I just question the judgment of teaching them. The power clean/snatch are a different matter, you can teach those in an hour w/o much trouble. Start at the hang, jump, shrug, keep the arms straight, elbows up on the catch.

But I can easily see cases where this wouldn't hold true. That being the case, explosive clean/snatch pulls w/o the catch, jumps (weighted and unweighted), and even sprints could be an acceptable alternative, depending on the sport in question.

In short, I see them as being contextually useful, but not absolutely necessary.

i agree, and i'm glad you typed this out before i did, because you said it better than I could.

I do think that they build explosive power for those who do them. They teach an athlete to lift fast, and the importance in speed.

Just like anything else, you're not going to be cleaning anything on the field just like you don't squat on the field, but the movements and actions of the movements teach the athlete a lot more than the actual weight lifted.

[Bob Takano]

Olympic lifts and their derivatives, if applied properly, can improve performance for any athletes that need to be explosive while standing. The loading (intensities and volumes) should be monitored to have optimal effects and should be designed by a qualified coach.
This is assuming that technique is adequate.

[GqArtguy]

Originally Posted by Bob Takano

Olympic lifts and their derivatives, if applied properly, can improve performance for any athletes that need to be explosive while standing. The loading (intensities and volumes) should be monitored to have optimal effects and should be designed by a qualified coach.
This is assuming that technique is adequate.

Hmmm, are you Sean Waxman's coach? Your name sounds familiar.

[Frank.S]

Good tool to use, not the only tool though.

If the main training season was any less then a couple of months, then I dont think incorporating the full lifts in would be smart. Rather, maybe the power versions/jump shrugs/etc due to easier learning curve and more time for progression.

[Chrisatc]

Originally Posted by coach hale

Should competitive athletes (other than Olympic Weightlifters) perform O-lifts (or derivatives)? This question has been debated for some time. Some coaches insist all athletes need the O-lifts while others suggest they are useless for athletes other than Olympic Weightlifters. In my opinion the correct answer is it depends on the athlete. If the athlete enjoys the movements, is receiving benefits and not inducing injury sure. On the other hand if the athlete seems to be inflicting damage and is spending too much time attempting to learn the skill-set the answer is no.

thanks
Coach Hale
www.maxcondition.com

IMO, the answer would be depends on the teacher/coach first. If they (the coach) can effectively teach the skill, effectively place the skill and progress the skill as needed, then that is most key to success. Otherwise, they must have better options.

[fitzy21]

we used them during our preseason. the power versions of hte clean and snatch. we also did split jerks. we progressed from the hang version to a full power clean and snatch. it wsa gradual.

so i think it has its place, just like any other tool - as long as it can be implemented in a correct, safe manner that will get the athlete stronger and faster.

i feel i'm a lot stronger because of them. my squat has gone up a lot, and even at my weight, i'm a faster sprinter right now. though that needs its own work - my conditioning is not up to par, but that'll come with playing more rugby.

were now in-season, so were not doing all too much, but we do a couple of sets of hang snatches during our gym workout still. '

so like anything, its just a tool to be used, and there is always other tools out there in the toolbox

[ryan122185]

One of the benefits many forget is that in the catch you are training deceleration which is very important for athletes.

[PowerManDL]

What athletes catch things in a full squat position?

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by ryan122185

One of the benefits many forget is that in the catch you are training deceleration which is very important for athletes.

Same with a regular squat, even more so with a banded squat. ?

[GqArtguy]

Originally Posted by PowerManDL

What athletes catch things in a full squat position?

OLers

[fitzy21]

baseball catchers
haha

[ryan122185]

Originally Posted by Frank.S

Same with a regular squat, even more so with a banded squat. ?

Not quite true with say power cleans you are taking the bar from full explosion up to stand still. With any sort of squat the bar physically remains in contact with the back. And even with a power clean you are still decelerating.

[PowerManDL]

I'm still never been told how or when that's relevant to anyone but an OLer.

[Chris Correia]

Many good points, gents. I appreciate the conversation.

I was going to comment, but Matt and others got it well covered. So, I'll keep things moving with two questions:

1. Re loading, how much leeway is there to still receive adequate benefit? (I'm talking generically for athletes here, say in my case, a martial artist.)

Some writers offer the admonishment of needing to be rigorous about working with a pretty narrow range of loading parameters. This may be more the case with formal training for actual o-lifting.

Other writers espouse working with a sufficiently, but not overly, heavy weight and working to move it as fast a possible. Most of those writers also seem to express that even just working the pull is sufficient.

So, how forgiving are the explosive lift movements in terms of the benefits derived from a range of loads?

2. Regarding deceleration, in my limited understanding, Ido see the point of the value of the squat catch, or even a bastardized catch in a power clean or the deceleration at the end of a power snatch, as still having carry over to athletics.

In the lifts, the muscles must decelerate a heavy moving mass to get the body into a fixed position or a change in direction. Surely, that can carry over to other athletic movements, even if they are not quite done in the same posture, position or movement. But, that may be more true for lower body deceleration than upper body. Just to be a devil's advocate, if the specificity of motion is so important, then athletes should select all of their lifts with more sport specific movement specificity in mind. If the explosive pull movement has value for the running back, why would not the deceleration training at the end of the movement -- going into a squat/partial squat and the slowing down that must occur to secure the weight and position -- have value for him as well?

[PowerManDL]

Originally Posted by Chris Correia

2. Regarding deceleration, I do see the point of the value of the squat catch, or even a bastardized catch in a power version of a clean or the deceleration at the end of a power snatch, as still having carry over. In all cases, the muscles must decelerate a heavy moving mass to get the body into a fixed position or a change in direction. Surely, that can carry over to other athletic movements, even if they are not quite done in the same posture, position or movement. But, that may be more true for lower body deceleration than upper body.

See, this is what I don't get. The "catch" is not a forceful impact, and certainly not in the same magnitude or movement pattern as anything done in any sport I can think of; I'm racking my brain trying to think of one.

Jumps and landings will train that, but I seriously can't think of any scenario, besides OL itself, where catching the bar as is done in that sport is relevant to anything else.