The "art" of bulking - JP Fitness Forums

kfisherx · 03-17-2008, 11:54 AM

Not sure if this should go here or nutrition so please move it if I got it wrong.

I am female and attempting to do my first bulk. Over the past 3 months I have fairly accurately depicted my average daily calorie burn at about 2350 kcals a day. I started a bulk program in end of Jan and went from eating 1400 kcals a day (adding 2-3 hundred each week) up to 2700 kcals a day.

Up until about 3 weeks ago I was gaining weight (about .5 lbs a week) without gaining any fat. I started at 128.7lbs and 17.8% bf on Jan 20.

On Feb 12 I was at 130.8 and 17.2%. I was very happy. But then the fat started to come. I cannot really pinpoint what changed at that time but I have been gaining bf at an astounishing rate since then. Today I am weighing in at 132 and 19.2%.

If the numbers are to be believed I have done nothing but gained fat in the past 4 weeks. I think the numbers are to be believed as I always weigh bf and mass at preciesely the same time each day. I throw out any weird numbers and I see trends going up each day as opposed to just one random bf% measure. My diet is the same as it was a month ago except I am consuming about 350 kcals more a day which also happens to be about the number of kcals over my daily burn.

I am not freaked out or worried about this as I know I can knock this fat out fairly quickly. I would like to understand what best next steps should be. My initial plan was to bulk until May 1st and the do a cut for the summer. Now I am thinking that the work I am doing today towards the bulk might be counterproductive. The way I see it my options are as follows...

1. Stick with the bulk and the current high calories (this is the way it is supposed to work)
2. Cut back down to 2400 kcal a day range and continue to lift heavy.
3. Start the cut 'cause your body is done doing anything useful with respect to gaining muscle for this time period.

What do you guys think?

GqArtguy · 03-17-2008, 11:59 AM

What are you using to measure bf% because regardless of the consistent time of measurement, these things still have a margin of error. Calipers can be about 2.5% both ways, and thats if you have a pair of good ones and know how to measure your flab accurately and at the same spot.

So Id use other methods of tracking progress like pics, some measurements, etc.

kfisherx · 03-17-2008, 12:35 PM

That is a fair question. I am using a 4 point ORMON scale. It takes bio-impedence from hands and feet and has been pretty accurate for me so far in that it is consistent every single day. Every now and then it throws me a "zinger" number that doesn't make sense but mostly it is within .5% or less of any given number day by day. I am pretty confident in the number being right realatively speaking.

I also use pics and clothing fit. My clothes are definately tight and I can no longer fit in my size 3 jeans in fact and you can see the fat increase in my face (I actually like my face with more fat as it shows less age lines that way)

So I am positive that I am gaining at least some fat at this point. Since I am very anal about tracking everything I eat and monitoring data I feel comfortable with my assesment in that area too.

I suppose this fat gain will happen to anyone on a bulking program at some point in time. I am wondering if that it the time or single for the person doing the bulk to switch things up or if it is just expected to gain fat? I know for women it is really hard to not gain fat so perhaps for women it is different too? I don't know. This is all new to me.

ParanoidAndroid · 03-17-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

I suppose this fat gain will happen to anyone on a bulking program at some point in time.

Yes. It's pretty much impossible for everyone except for rank beginners, "enhanced" trainees, and people with ridiculous genetics to add a good amount of muscle without gaining some fat. It happens to all of us, to some extent.

Switch up your program if you want or eat slightly less, but don't expect to suddenly put start putting on tons of lean muscle without any fat--some fat gain will usually come, no matter how hard you train, ect.

Also, are your lift numbers going up? If you are able to keep adding more weight or get more reps every workout, it's probably safe to say that you are still adding muscle.

kfisherx · 03-17-2008, 06:07 PM

Yeah I am gaining strength still in my workouts so I am sure that I am adding some muscle but my question is at what point does it become counterproductive to put on weight/fat. I feel as if I have crossed that threshold this month and I want to switch something up.

I just visisted a body building trainer who I admire and he told me my two options where to decrease cals (by only a few hundred) or to increase cardio by that much. He advised to decrease fat and carbs but not protein if I was to go the decrease cals route. He definately did not advise that I continue gaining fat at such a high rate to muscle. That is counterproductive.

jvernacchio · 03-17-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kfisherx

I just visisted a body building trainer who I admire and he told me my two options where to decrease cals (by only a few hundred) or to increase cardio by that much. He advised to decrease fat and carbs but not protein if I was to go the decrease cals route. He definately did not advise that I continue gaining fat at such a high rate to muscle. That is counterproductive.

That is not bad advice. Its a bit like G-Fluxing from Berardi.

kfisherx · 03-17-2008, 07:34 PM

I think the whole bulking thing and girls is an area that is fairly unexplored. With men, I think it is the case that you can eat fairly high over your daily rate of burn and gain muscle. With girls I think the tendency is to gain fat if over the daily rate by more than 1-2 hundred kcals. I have learned a good lesson. Fortunately cutting is pretty easy for me so it shouldn't take long to get back once my bulk is done.

PowerManDL · 03-17-2008, 09:49 PM

A trained woman will be lucky to hit 1/4 lb/week, or a lb a month, of actual muscle gains for any given weight gain.

A 350kcal/day excess will add up to around 9800 extra kcals over the month, which would be 2.8 lbs of fat if all those calories went to fat gains.

Considering your body-comp numbers, obviously something didn't add up. Manny's point about the error in BF measurement is very valid here. The +/-3% margin of error is the minimum error observed in calipers, implying a well-trained and experienced tester. It can easily vary more than this.

Variances in calorie usage and food content measurements is another. We can only get so accurate in estimating both energy needs and what's in our foods before the limits of resolution make things blurry.

That said....22.5 lbs to 25.3 lbs of fat, which would be your beginning and current estimates of BF%, represents exactly 2.8 lbs of fat gain with a commensurate loss of 1.6 lbs of muscle. This isn't a very likely scenario, just for statistical reasons, let alone the physiological ones.

What's more likely is that you've had a combination of water, fat, and muscle gain, though for a net gain of 1.2 lbs, it's not been much of anything.

Anecdotally, women seem very sensitive to body-comp changes, psychologically and physically. Much smaller changes seem to add up to much larger visual changes than in men.

My suggestion? It's been a month and you've added barely over a pound. I'd keep it going a little longer, or possibly look into some kind of cyclic diet.

And the main thing: bulking takes forever in women, and you won't synthesize that much muscle. Keeping calorie excesses much smaller, but for longer periods of time, is highly suggested.

kfisherx · 03-18-2008, 08:43 AM

Powerman I believe you ar right about the Math not completely adding up. There is no way that I lost muscle. I am getting much stronger and bigger and veiny as well. I ate under my daily burn yesterday and did a nice little run. I also made sure that I drink a full gallon of water (I have been a tiny bit lax on that lately). This morning I showed an 18% bf measurement. Obviously I did not loose 1% of bf overnight. My trainer has been blown away so far by my muscle gains so I should be happy with that. He wants me to forget about the challenge and keep a longer and slower bulk going. I have to think about that. It probably does make better sense but I really want to cut for summer.

ZachL · 03-19-2008, 08:23 AM

do you have a nutrition log? I'd like to see your workout day nutrition data.

kfisherx · 03-19-2008, 05:37 PM

Sure here you go.... I recorded a snapshot of time from the 5th of March until the 15th. If you want different or more let me know. The macros and types of food that I am eating has remained the same as the first few months where I did not gain fat. The only thing that has changed is that I continue to add more calories.

Index of /msc

ZachL · 03-19-2008, 05:42 PM

I don't see any reference to workouts in those food logs. My interest in seeing them was mainly to see your nutrition surrounding your workouts and as a general function of time. Could you help me decipher your nutrition intake surrounding workouts? And also, before bed?

kfisherx · 03-19-2008, 05:50 PM

Yeah, my program doesn't really do the time thing so well. I ALWAYS have a cytogainer after my workout.(570 kcals, 54 grams protein) Before my workout I always have a meal (around 30 min before) and my meals all consist of 30 or more grams of protein. At bedtime I always have protein drink or meal with protein and within 30 min of waking I eat a meal with 30 or more grams or protein. I averaged 276 grams of protein a day. If I am going to do fat it is generally in the AM. Carbs I do throughout the day. I seem to do okay with higher carbs so long as my fat is lower.

I am eating 2700 kcals a day in 400 cal or less meals which means I am eating like every 2-3 hours or so. Sometimes I even wake up in the middle of the night to eat. Thank god for the cytogainer.

ZachL · 03-19-2008, 06:29 PM

A couple of questions:
1) why the low fat diet?
2) do you use a milk protein blend or casein outside of the workout window, or use whey?
3) Are you consuming a carb & protein beverage during your workouts? 4) How long do your workouts last?
5) supplements?

One comment: As long as your strength is making steady progress, I would really hesitate to get off the plan you are on and would be cautious in making changes, both nutritionally and in the lifting regimen.

kfisherx · 03-20-2008, 01:09 AM

1. I don't know why the low fat. It seems to be that is the way I like to eat. Lower fat foods taste good to me. When I increase the fat I feel like I am lacking something and get cravings. The 40,40,20 plan seems to fit me very well and even when on a deficit I don't crave.

2. I rarely drink anything with milk. I don't like it. The cytogainer that I use after the workout has both whey and casein protein from my understanding but it is mostly whey and faster acting.

3. I don't consume anything but water during my workouts. My workouts generally last 45 minutes to 1:20 minutes. If I do HIT after the workout they are longer. I do 4-5 workouts a week and I alternate between body areas. (shoulders/pecs/tris)(back/lat s)(Quads)(Hams). I do cardio 2-3 times on top of these workouts for 20 minutes (interval training)

I take a multi-vitamin and calcium and my cytogainer has createne in it. I also recently strated to take CLA. Wait a minute that is something that has changed in the last month. But it dosesn't make sense that would cause fat gain even temporarily.

I am gaining strength very nicely but if it is the case that I can only add realistically .25 lbs a week of muscle why would I eat more than 100-200 kcals over maintainence? I mean wouldn't anything extra above that be converted to fat? I don't want to add another month to my cut because I ate too much during this bulk.

ZachL · 03-20-2008, 08:46 AM

I'm sorry if this isn't beautifully organized, but I'm going to give you all my comments in one burst.
Low fat diet - I assume you mean 20% fat. That is at the bottom end of acceptable under just about any plan. Fat tends to promote satiety because of its slow digestion and other physical properties. Plus, you're bulking - you can't have cravings on a bulking cycle! Ok, maybe you can, but still, that says to me you are probably not properly fueling your system. I would try increasing that fat ratio, perhaps just by adding in more fish oil. Look to get 3-5g a day. Costco enteric coated is what I use.
Around workouts I'm going to recommend you try a drink. 1 hour + is a long time to workout without refueling your system. Starting 10 minutes before the workout, sip on a drink with carbs and protein in a 3 or 4:1 ratio. Probably around 100-150 calories. Finish it by the end of the workout.
Your cytogainer is fine afaik, but to get the benefits of creatine you must consume all of the cytogainer within half an hour of mixing in liquid. Otherwise creatine loses its value.
Let's see...oh yes.
Unfortunately, our bodies are not simple matters of metabolism in, metabolism out. Timing, macronutrient ratios, and a host of other factors affect our body composition and utilization of nutrients. As a result, 100-200 calories, is likely not enough increase over baseline to sustain an increase in muscle growth.
So in conclusion,
workout nutrition...
higher fat diet
keep the same calories while you make these changes, and then look into increasing!

And please, anyone who sees misinformation here please discuss.