Hey everyone, from the books that I've got I've come up with a conclusion on how train and eat for muscle and strength. Would you mind sharing your comments and if there's something that you see is false would you mind pointing it out and sharing your point of view? Thanks.
Eating:
In order to get big you must eat big. However, one must do it with patience and intelligence. If you go on a "see-food" diet you WILL gain muscle. However, you might gain more fat than muscle. So, in order to gain MOSTLY muscle, you have to eat big, but not too big.
If you're a skinny guy try to get most of your carbs around your workout period and breakfast. You're also allowed to have some carbs through-out the day. However, vegetables should be a staple at every meal, just try not to eat a large amount of them as they can fill you up and that would be counter-productive for size. Lean, complete protein with every meal. Also, eat a good amount of healthy fats but try to keep them away from your workout period.
As for calories, don't worry about it. Start eating healthily and plenty. If you see that after a couple of weeks that there's no gain, increase your carbs at your workout period. Still no progress after 2 weeks, increase breakfast carbs, etc. There's no "set in stone" rule for increasing calories or counting calories. I pretty much prefer increasing portions than measuring and counting every bit of food that goes in me.
As for what types of food to eat. I think you're pretty much smart enough to know that a broccoli is better than a large fries at McDonald's. But, here's what I prefer: Carbs: brown (wild) rice, whole grains, fruits and vegetables, fruit juice (for workout carbs), whole wheat pasta. Proteins: eggs, lean ground beef, turkey, salmon, boneless chicken breasts, water-packed tuna, protein powder. Fats: Almonds, olive oil, fish oil, unsalted nuts.
As for the supplements that I take, I take fish oil (6 capsules a day) and protein powder to drink with my fruit juice before and after my workout. I sip on water during my workout.
Training:
Now, I'll talk about training. First of all, I'll talk about exercise choice. Try to choose mainly compound, multi-joint exercises over isolation exercises. Compound exercises are the ones in which more than one joint is used in the exercise, hence more muscle is used. Isolation exercises are the ones in which only one joint is used, hence not so muscle being used. Some isolation work isn't harmful, but try to keep it minimal compared to compound exercises. A biceps curl once a week for 2 sets won't be harmful to you. But a biceps curl 3 times a week with plenty variations and a dozen sets is another story. It's a huge list to write the compound and isolation exercises that I use and I guess most people on this board know them so I guess there's no need.
As for frequency, I try to train 2 days a week or 3 days every 2 weeks. With each multi-joint movement being trained once a week or once every 8-10 days. I also perform low-intensity cardio on my off days to try to keep fat gaining to a minimum.
Volume, is something that I keep referring to my book that I'm using (Stuart Mcrobert's Brawn). It's a bit confusing to me so I'll try to explain it in a very simple way. Most of the exercises are used for 2-3 sets, no more. As for reps they always fluctuate, I try low reps for the upper body then high reps later, same goes for the lower body. I keep trying most rep ranges until I find one that works great for me.
Intensity is something that I cycle in my training cycle. Early on, I keep intensity low so I can practice good form then I start increasing the weights and intensity little by little. By the end of the cycle it's usually all-out sets. Also, while increasing intensity I eliminate un-necessary exercises until it's at the bare minimum of 2-3 exercises per workout.
Those are the main highlights...Also, I include neck, calf and grip work in my schedule along with shrugs and pull-overs.
Progression can come in 2 forms, either SLOWLY increasing the weight or choose a rep range and start from the bottom and work your way to upper range then add a little bit of weight and go through it again.
So I guess that wraps up my conclusions after studying Stuart McRobert's "Brawn", "Beyond Brawn" and "Build Muscle, lose fat, look great". As for nutrition, it's mainly influenced by Precision Nutrition by John Berardi. I do have a question if you don't mind.
1) Although what I currently know is that a compound exercise done once a week would be the best option. Why does Rippetoe recommend squatting 3 times a week?
Now, a little about me (I know this should've come way up but hey...). I'm 18 years old and weigh 55 kg. and I'm 172 cm tall. Guess that's about 120 lbs. and...5'6 - 5'7 tall. For an 18 year old in my status it's pretty hard. When my pals keep wrestling or pushing around I try not to get into it. When girls always go to the big guys and consider you a "sweetie!!" . Sorry, wasn't the time to rant. Just saying that if you guys have any comments that would benefit me to get bigger AND stronger, please don't hesitate.
Also, my intention isn't for this to be a guide for other skinny guys to come and learn. This is a question (sorta!) and an ask for help and an opinion. Although, if after a few modifications, why not come and learn from this thread?
The best thing to remember is that all rules are contextual, not absolutes. What holds true for some of the time doesn't always hold true all of the time. I can point out valid exceptions to everything you wrote.
Trying to pigeonhole everything into neat little packages is what gets people into trouble.
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I will make a point or two on your post. I read a lot of McRober's stuff when I was 6-4 160 (feet and pounds) and convinced myself I was a hardgainer. Now, this may be specific to me and may not apply to you, but that stuff about working out every 8-10 days did not work. He's right that compound excercises are key, but unless you are somehow overtrained presently, squatting and deadlifting two to three times a week should not be a problem. Put it this way, I read that stuff and thought I was a 'hardgainer' that might overtrain and the fact was I was undertraining and undereating and that program sure didn't help the former.
I'm a big fan of Berardi, but instead of precision nutrition, I would focus on his articles called "massive eating" on his website. At 120 pounds I don't think you need to worry about skinless chicken, and other superlean foods. Again, in my experience the gains did not come until I ate several small meals a day and built up my appetite to where over time I could consume far more calories before I got "full". Yeah, a lot of tuna, yogurt, peanut butter, etc. But my choices were made not to avoid fats, but to get cheap and convenient calorie-dense foods. Unless you have a gut, why worry about going with super-lean food choices only?
Just my .02 cents
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Since most of your life is already complicated, why make your training the same way? Jim Wendler
Well, I see what you're saying now. I shouldn't try to over-complicate things by setting rules. But I should be a bit more flexible, am I right? Well, I get your point about the not-too-frequent workouts. About nutrition, I'm skinny. But if I let myself eat junk, trust me, I get a belly in a week or 2. So I'm just increasing my intake while eating healthily. Also, massive eating and PN are almost alike. Except that there is more detail in PN.
Ok, let me define my goals a bit more. I'm skinny (guess you already knew that) so I want size. But I wanna move heavier weights at the gym. Also, I like the idea of powerlifting. So, I guess it's strength first then size as a side-effect (of eating big, of course!). Hmm, maybe I shouldn't stick to one point of view in training all the time. I'll give Rippetoe's workout a shot, I've got his Practical Programming book so that'll make planning ahead easier.
Wow, so there were people who were like me once. Ok, I don't spend that much time online because I've got college from 8 am - 4 pm. Sucks, I know. But hey, what can you do? So I won't be using an online log because I probably won't be able to post a lot. So I'll just log in a diary and post results every 6 months or so.
Me at 18 = 125-130 lbs. Me now = 201 (as of last night, I've dieted down from an even more spectacular fatass weight of 215 and been as heavy as 220-225). I'm only 5'9, so you've got some hope.
Being a skinny-ass like I was, the best advice I can give you is to think less about your workouts and think way more about your diet, esp. if you're a broke-ass college student in classes all day.
The workouts in Rip's book are all you need; but tissue doesn't grow out of thin air. You need to find ways to make sure you're getting the calories; that was the hardest lesson for me to learn.
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Thanks, I never caught your name though. Or should I stick by calling you PMDL? Anyways, counting calories is a drag for me. Honestly, I doubt if most people have the time to measure every morsel of food they get. Don't you think eating according to Berardi's PN and Massive Eating principles while increasing the portions every 2 weeks is a good idea? Thanks again man.
Thanks, I never caught your name though. Or should I stick by calling you PMDL? Anyways, counting calories is a drag for me. Honestly, I doubt if most people have the time to measure every morsel of food they get. Don't you think eating according to Berardi's PN and Massive Eating principles while increasing the portions every 2 weeks is a good idea? Thanks again man.
Matt, PMDL, that jerk on the forums, whatever you want to call me.
You don't have to count calories per se, but it's a good idea to have some kind of system in place to make sure you get enough food in.
Massive Eating tends to grossly over-estimate the number of calories you need; whether this is an intentional psychological trick I don't know, but if you stuck to the guidelines you'd get fat.
Getting fat is fine for skinny guys, to a point, but once you've been at it awhile you'll really want to avoid the fat.
I tend to just measure protein intake; as long as I'm getting enough (1-1.5 grams per lb of bodyweight, generally), I can manipulate the rest pretty easily. Add in carbs and fats at each meal and I'm usually at least in the neighborhood. Likewise, remove them for dieting purposes.
Really though you'll just have to find a system that works for you. Just don't neglect it.
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Carbs: brown (wild) rice, whole grains, fruits and vegetables, fruit juice (for workout carbs), whole wheat pasta.
Proteins: eggs, lean ground beef, turkey, salmon, boneless chicken breasts, water-packed tuna, protein powder.
Fats: Almonds, olive oil, fish oil, unsalted nuts.
As for the supplements that I take, I take fish oil (6 capsules a day) and protein powder to drink with my fruit juice before and after my workout. I sip on water during my workout.
Hmm, thanks again guys. I also like PMDL's idea about measuring protein and the rest should come around by itself. Hey, I'll give it a shot. What have I got to lose?
Ok guys, I have a few more diet and training questions. I'll divide them.
Training:
1) About abdominal work, any good exercises to implement in the program? and when? Before my workout or after or in-between?
2) How can I incorporate conditioning work into my program while my main focus is strength and size?
3) I've got Rip's Practical Programming book but I don't have his Starting Strength book. And I can't afford his book. It's either his SS book or a gym membership. And I'm going with the latter. So, do I NEED his SS book or could I look up EFS's website for exercise form?
Diet:
1) What do you guys think about Rippetoe's idea of drinking a gallon of milk a day? And should it be whole fat, low fat or skimmed?
2) I know I should focus on getting a lot of carbs. But whole wheat grains fill me up QUICK. And that's not good. Are white grains a good plan to "up" my carb intake? Also, I may be reducing veggie intake a bit and increase my fruit intake, is that ok?
Ok guys, I have a few more diet and training questions. I'll divide them.
Training:
1) About abdominal work, any good exercises to implement in the program? and when? Before my workout or after or in-between?
2) How can I incorporate conditioning work into my program while my main focus is strength and size?
3) I've got Rip's Practical Programming book but I don't have his Starting Strength book. And I can't afford his book. It's either his SS book or a gym membership. And I'm going with the latter. So, do I NEED his SS book or could I look up EFS's website for exercise form?
Diet:
1) What do you guys think about Rippetoe's idea of drinking a gallon of milk a day? And should it be whole fat, low fat or skimmed?
2) I know I should focus on getting a lot of carbs. But whole wheat grains fill me up QUICK. And that's not good. Are white grains a good plan to "up" my carb intake? Also, I may be reducing veggie intake a bit and increase my fruit intake, is that ok?
Well, I've searched around and found answers to most of my questions
1) Since I'll be working 3 days a week, I'll perform 3 different types of abdominal movement on each workout. On day 1 I might perform decline sit-ups. On day 2 I'll do high-to-low woodchoppers. On day 3 I'll do hanging leg raises.
2) As for conditioning, Rip recommended metabolic conditioning by Crossfit. Any idea where I can find out what that is?
3) For exercise form, I used PN's exercise database. For the main core lifts I chose the powerlifting stance option.
4) About the milk issue. Some people advocate it. Some don't. I won't go for a gallon a day. I'll take it gradually. I don't think I can handle all the milk at once. I'll be using whole milk.
5) This is the only question that's got me scratching my head. Do I just suck it up or is there a better solution?
I start my gym on Tuesday (membership money won't come until then). So I hope I've got everything figured out by then.
2) As for conditioning, Rip recommended metabolic conditioning by Crossfit. Any idea where I can find out what that is?
google is your friend. Make sure you're eating enough on your CF days.
Quote:
5) This is the only question that's got me scratching my head. Do I just suck it up or is there a better solution?
White bread/pasta isn't going to kill you. Go ahead and have some; at 120 lbs, you need as many cals as you can get. Another option is to make smoothies, you can usually get in a good amount of cals without filling up. For example, I just had a post-workout shake(I hate that term) consisting of:
1 sccop whey
12 oz milk
1/2 cup ice cream
banana
1 cup oatmeal.
Trying to eat that much whole would be hard for me. However, blending it into a shake makes it much more doable.
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"Focus on making the 5 lifts stronger and getting enough food. There will be plenty of time to worry about glycemic indexes, PERs, and Bulgarian Split squats later. Much later."-Mark Rippetoe
Hmm...Ok, from what I've found out. Apparently, CF metcon (matabolic conditioning) is simply HIIT. So I guess I'll just do that. I'll check out Ross Enamait's jump rope training for that. It's TOO HOT outside to go for sprinting. So I'll just stick indoors.
As for the nutrition thing. Mid-day I'll stick to yams and whole grains. As for white potatoes/rice/pasta/bread, I'll mainly consume them around workout time.
Well, after these past few days I found out that the best time for ME to train and do other things in my life optimally is at night. And that during uni. hours i can't eat a lot. So, here we go:
1) Are there any problems with training about 3 hours before I go to sleep and have a carb-loaded meal after my workout?
2) I've decided it's best to make smoothies to take with me to the university. Only problem is I'm a bit worried they'd go bad until I drink them. Any advice?
just worry about getting enough protien and enough cals, how you get there is really splitting hairs.
dont worry about carb timing, it wont matter in the long run.
if you have a hard time putting on weight the problem is almost always food intake. Ive posted my weight gain diet on here before and gotten people thinking I made it up because there is no way i could eat the 6-7+k cals per day constantly.
Well, ok. I get your point. But won't it be difficult nowadays to ingest a LOT of calories whilst eating healthy at the same time?! Moreover, school and work and family etc. all make it difficult to get a lot of calories from healthy foods. Not to mention it's a bit hard on the wallet.
Well, ok. I get your point. But won't it be difficult nowadays to ingest a LOT of calories whilst eating healthy at the same time?! Moreover, school and work and family etc. all make it difficult to get a lot of calories from healthy foods. Not to mention it's a bit hard on the wallet.
I spend a stupid amount of money on food every month, more then many families just living by myself. Mind you, I always buy really good cuts of meat and eat 5-7 serving of steak/chicken/fish per day.
But, I don't really think its necessary to spend that much.
Oats
Whey
Whole Milk
Eggs
Box's of chicken
Cheap steaks
Trail mix (like 300-400cals per cup. and easy.)
Olive Oil
Peanuts / Peanut butter
Gaining a significant amount of muscle is hard as hell and takes 10x the discipline of loosing fat. People who have never gained more then a few lbs of muscle never understand this mind you. Ive gained substantial mass in the last few years and I cant count how many times ive eaten to much and its came right back up, great, then i have to make something else to replace those cals.
I bring food with me, wherever I go. If im going to a bar for more then about an hour, I have brought some almonds or something in my pocket that ill sneak outside to eat, or even a meal in my car. This stuff is not easy and if it is, your results probably speak for themselves.
You learn to deal with the comments, especially once people see your body improving.
I like what PMDL said and it reminds me of something Jim Wendler said:
Ok, thanks guys. One more question. If I make smoothies out of fruits and olive oil and nuts and MILK. Would the milk ruin while it's in my car for 6 hours?? Or should I keep the milk away until it's time for my smoothie and then I buy a small carton of milk and mix them?
Depends on the air temp in your car. I wouldn't leave milk unrefrigerated for 6 hours personally. If it's winter and the car's cold however, I don't think you have a problem. Summertime at 30C is a big problem obviously.
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I'll echo the last couple of posts and say you can make it happen.
Money's a problem? Eat cans of tuna. They are cheap and have about 30 grams of protein. Eat yogurt- cheap. Chicken and pork are fairly inexpensive and also can be eaten cold the next day or two after cooking.
As for your shake problem, can you take a cooler or thermos? I have a fridge at work now, but before I packed a cooler every day with ice in it. Bannanas (cheap), yogurt (cheap), cans of tuna (cheap) sandwhiches, pre-made salad w/ cheese, ham, etc.
I think the key is making as easy on yourself as possible. That means convenient sources of food.
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Since most of your life is already complicated, why make your training the same way? Jim Wendler
. . . drives me crazy to see solvable unsolvable problems . . .
A little creative thinking:
Who does have a fridge??? Some office, department, professor or student has a conveniently located fridge they would let you use. Particularly, ask a professor or departmental office for you major or for a class you are taking. Problem solved.
Otherwise, what else OTHER THAN MILK can you use, drink, or eat? There are unlimited options, and people here have suggested some, but there are a lot more. Just about any of many other options would work for you. Don't get stuck on any one, or few, things. Offhand, peanuts are cheap, some nuts not too expensive, and high in calories and good fats; whey is dirt cheap -- cheaper than milk -- and just mixes with water. Problem solved.
What I've Learned to Build Muscle
. Sorry, wasn't the time to rant. Just saying that if you guys have any comments that would benefit me to get bigger AND stronger, please don't hesitate.
Make sure you're eating enough on your CF days.
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