Knees buckling in = weak adductors or abductors?

[galapogos]

I've heard/read conflicting explanations for this. Rippetoe's Starting Strength says that it results from weak adductors rather than abductors, because in that position the relatively stronger quads take up more of the work. I've also read Eric Cressey's "You don't know squat" which argues the opposite, that it's a case of weak abductors.

Instinctively I tend to agree with Eric more since knees out is afterall an external rotation/abduction, and an inability to keep your knees out would suggest a weak/inhibited external rotator/abductor such as the glute max/med/min, rather than any of the adductors...but then again Rippetoe has a wealth of experience under his belt so it would be hard to explain how he got it wrong, if he did...

So who's right?

[galapogos]

anyone?

[ryan122185]

I little bit of both. When you abduct out with you legs, your adductors are called to stabilize.

Both muscle groups are muscles that are underutilized. The adductor's in addition to being underused are also typically tight.

[galapogos]

To my understanding, muscles that are tight, are usually the overactive/overworked ones, and their antagonists(in this case the abductors - glutes) are usually the inhibited/weak ones? Wouldn't this suggest weak abductors and overactive adductors? Or is this too simplistic a way of looking at things?

[strambo]

First off, when there is an imbalance, the muscles on both sides are weak because each is out of its proper length/tension relationship for max strength. So, one will be tight/overactive/weak, the other will be loose/underactive/weak.

The prescription is to stretch the tight ones and exercise the loose ones to get them to activate.

According to my NASM cheat sheet, knees in = probable overactive: adductors, biceps femoris (lateral hamstring), TFL (lateral side of thigh) and vastus lateralis (lateral side of quad)

probabale underactive: gluteus medius & maximus, vastus medialis oblique (inner quad)

Foam roll and stretch your adductors and TFL/IT band (outside of thigh), strengthen your glutes and do something like tube walking sideways to hit the others. A tube around your knees as you squat or a partner's hand on the outside of your knee will cue you to press your knees out into the proper position as you get up.

I'm sure more experienced trainers than me will chime in and clarify more.

[Cynic]

Are you actively trying to spread the floor? Squeeze the glutes?

[galapogos]

Thanks Brian, that kinda confirms my suspicion, though I didn't know that both agonist/antagonist would be weak. In fact I'm foam rolling my adductors and ITB, and using a tennis ball on my TFL. My right knee actually buckles in more than my left knee. The difference is pretty obvious even in daily life, and I actually feel a tender spot on my left TFL more than my right one. As for adductors/ITB, both sides feel pretty equal while foam rolling. My left hamstring is also tighter than my right, and my right glutes are weaker than my left(can be felt when single leg glute bridging/hip extension/lunging)

[Lisa~]

Originally Posted by galapogos

I've heard/read conflicting explanations for this. Rippetoe's Starting Strength says that it results from weak adductors rather than abductors, because in that position the relatively stronger quads take up more of the work. I've also read Eric Cressey's "You don't know squat" which argues the opposite, that it's a case of weak abductors.

Instinctively I tend to agree with Eric more since knees out is afterall an external rotation/abduction, and an inability to keep your knees out would suggest a weak/inhibited external rotator/abductor such as the glute max/med/min, rather than any of the adductors...but then again Rippetoe has a wealth of experience under his belt so it would be hard to explain how he got it wrong, if he did...

So who's right?

I was taught, as were many other trainers, that the first place to look for solutions to the knees caving in during squatting was to suspect weak abductors. I've also had success by teaching glute activation and knees out (or spread the floor) cuing. But there is rarely only one explanation. When respected coaches and trainers like Coach Rippetoe and Bill Hartman offer alternate explanations for the same problem, we should listen. My take-away has been that you have to find what solves the problem for the individual client. If the standard glute activation and abductor strengthening movements don't create the desired effect, then start looking elsewhere for solutions.

It's definitely some interesting reading. If some of you don't own Starting Strength, then read what Coach Rippetoe says on the topic in this interview by Craig Rasmussen: Texas BBQ: Talking Shop with Mark Rippetoe.

Then read Bill Hartman's blog post where he considers Coach Rippetoe's opinions and offers up even another possible solution: Squat Diagnosis.

I think most of us like to hear a definitive answer and believe we know what's right. But the reality is that different experts will offer up different opinions based on their experience and training. We learn what we can and apply it the best we can in the gym. There is rarely only one right answer.

[galapogos]

Wow Lisa, those are 2 great reads, especially Bill Hartman's one. Thanks for sharing!