Need some assurance with diet plans

[GqArtguy]

Ok guys heres the scoop:

My roommate (a kinesiology major) needed some people do hydrostatic weighing. Curious, and being a good roomie, I did it. I weighed in at 205 dry and in undies in the morning. My results were 5'10, 205, 20% bf!!!

Holy crap its been bothering me ever since, so I want to dedicate this summer to reaching the goal of being 205 with a 10% bf.

Ive read massive eating reloaded at t-mag (and I already eat cleanly) so I plan on following the protocols, measuring everything, and decreasing my calories according to popeye's formula and adjusting every two weeks:

Generally:
BW (bodywgt) x10-12 to wane
x14-16 to maintain
x18+ to gain

I plan on starting conumption at BW*12, then 2 wks later BW*11, and finally BW*10.

If I 'diet' off 12 lbs fat + 2 lean: that puts me at 191/13% = 25 fat/166 lean, just off from my fat goal by 5 lbs but 19 lbs away from new muscle needed. If I start gradually increasing my calories in the same way I gradually decreased them, will I be able to to gain muscle mass without fat gain?

As far as training goals, I plan on doing stronman training which will consist of an ME LB Day, ME UB Day, DE day, Event day for starters. I may start doing some sort of event work every work day after about 6 weeks into training. Its still sketchy because I need to see how I fare at this stuff.

But anyway, any comments or ideas about my plan?

[Alcoholday]

It sounds like you have a good grasp of it.

Just remember when you come to a small bulk again to get up to 205, that SOME fat gain will come with lean mass.

Diet all comes down to your food choices. If you're cutting, I would HIGHLY suggest doing the PC/PF meal combos.

Let me know if I can help any more.

[pooky1976]

Where can I find more info on this type of diet? Does it work and is it hard to follow?
What are PC/PF meal combos? Any info will be helpful.


Thx!

[NoMoYoYo]

Berardi's Massive Eating and Lean Eating can be found at http://www.johnberardi.com.

[GqArtguy]

Yeah I know that Ill gain some fat (hell look at me now!)

Its just interesting on how if I keep the training constant (as in the type of training i.e. strongman in my case), if I gradually decrease calories I can lose fat and preserve most of my muscle, but then when I gradually increase I will put on more muscle and little fat.

Any other comments from others?

[Adam Campbell]

If you're gradually decreasing calories and doing heavy strength training, I'd make your goal not to lose any muscle. Of course, the faster you take it off, the greater the risk of sacrificing some muscle. And vice versa.

I think an adjusted version of massive eating for fat loss is a good idea, although I'd make a couple of tweaks. I would recommend using the "Nutrient Timing" pre, during, and post workout approach, and then eat low carb the rest of the time. This is similar to what John recommends, except it eliminates the last P+C meal, and times it slightly differently. Also, I wouldn't eat as frequently or as many meals. You certainly want to have amino acids available for protein synthesis, but you also want to keep fat-burning high.

So following this plan you'd consume 24 grams of carbohydrates and six grams of protein mixed with 12 ounces of water before your workout, and then match that total amount during your workout, consuming equal portions every 15 to 20 minute during your workout. Then, in the 45-minute window after your workout, drink 45 grams of carbohydrates and 15 grams of protein mixed with 12 ounces of water, for a total of 240 calories. The rest of the day, basically just eat a high-fiber, low-carbohydrate diet (plenty of protein and fat) in say three to four meals.

Those numbers as I said, come from Nutrient Timing, and are probably debatable. But they're based on research, and I think they're a good overall guide to maximize muscle preservation and even gain while staying in a caloric deficit. (And they're in line with massive eating).

The other thing you could consider is taking creatine at the same time. It appears to help preserve lean mass as well (based on research where guys wear casts on one arm).

So you'll take advantage of the insulin spike when your body is in a primed anabolic environment. And then the low-carb approach will keep insulin levels low the rest of the day in order to promote lipolysis. Also, on the days you don't train, I'd eat stick with a very-low carb (but high fiber) diet all day.

[GqArtguy]

Thanks Adam. So assuming that I workout in the afternoon (since Ill work from 6am to 2pm most likely), would this be an appropriate setup:

530am Meal 1 (breakfast) P+F
3hrs later
830 am Meal 2 P+F
3hrs later
1130 Meal 3 P+F
3.5hrs later
300pre workout, workout nutrition (1hr of training)
45min later
445 Post WO: 45C, 15P + water

Im not sure what happens after that. Usually I drink a PWO after lifting and then get hungry about 60-90 min afterwards. I may not with this setup. Assuming I crash at 8pm for work, I might have a little bit of cottage cheese, or should I continue to consume a small P+F?

[Adam Campbell]

I would definitely eat later after your workout and before bed. Getting some protein before bed is a good idea, I think. I'd keep the carbs to a minimum. Cottage cheese doesn't have a huge amount of carbs--although it contains fat and carbs--so it's not bad, but I'd be inclined to make that a P+F meal only, if possible. I don't think cottage cheese has that profound effect on insulin levels, which should be your main concern on meals other than pre, during, and post workout.

I am doing a similar plan right now, and am having good changes in body comp. I don't have any official measurements, but I'm maintaining weight and visibly losing body fat (starting to see my abs again), which is my goal. I workout in the morning so that's when I get my high-glycemic carbs. The rest of the day is basically just meat, vegetables, nuts, and cheese, which is a diet I enjoy.

I don't count carbs or calories (except pre, during, and post workout), I just eat when I'm hungry and limit my carbs to what's in vegetables, nuts, and cheeses. It's sort of the lazy man's diet to better body comp.

[GqArtguy]

Thanks for the clarification.I was referring to fat-free cottage cheese, which is the only thing I buy and thus referred to as cottage cheese.

Im counting my calories just to see how much I eat and I may keep that amount constant during my first wk or 2 during the strongman stuff.

Thanks for your help.

[joshman]

Oh mama. I want to do this, but . . . I've modified my diet this way before (limited carbs before workout + 2 P+C meals after PWO shake).

I wanted to die. After two weeks I just couldn't adjust to the funk that was in my head. It was like I had a labotomy.

[Adam Campbell]

If you're eating fat-free cottage cheese, then I'd definitely avoid it, since it has more carbs than regular cottage cheese.

I look forward to hearing how it goes.

This method seems to make sense intuitively if you're relatively low in body fat already and want to work out with a high volume and high intensity, while keeping insulin levels low the rest of the time.

Joshman, I wonder if you let your calories get to low?

[joshman]

Adam,

Maybe. I was getting exactly 2450 calories on workout days, and around 2000 on non workout days.

I eat that now, and feel fine.

[Chris Correia]

Adam, GQ, whoever: A couple of questions . . .

Should similar pre & post workout nutrition (same amounts of carbs and protein) be followed for a cardio/HIIT session (lasting 20 to 30 minutes)?

Also, what's the reason(s) for breaking up the workout nutrition that way, rather than the bigger, single PWO drink?

Also, I notice no P/C AM meal for the morning carb boost. Cutting related? (I workout out either mid/later AM or early PM.

[Adam Campbell]

Hey Chris,

if your main goal is cutting fat you don't need that morning carb boost. It elevates insulin levels and inhibits fat loss. While this might make sense if you're trying to pack on muscle, I don't think it's the best way to maximize fat loss. Remember, you'll have plenty of energy from eating carbs before/during your workout, not to mention you'll still be getting carbs from vegetables, etc.

However, I'd say on the days you workout in the AM P+C would make sense and you could eliminate the pre workout drink.

Like was discussed in some other recent threads, the quantity of the post workout drink doesn't need to be that high to be effective. Breaking up the nutrition however provides energy during your workout. Also, eating before your workout may be more effective at increasing net muscle protein synthesis than eating afterwards according to some Tipton/Wolfe research. There's a book called Nutrient Timing that gives plenty of reasons for all this stuff. I certainly didn't create it, I just found it to be really effective.

I think for maximimum fat-burning I probably would just go with 10 grams of protein before and after your HIIT workout. If you're worried that your glycogen levels will be reduced below optimal, you could add some carbs afterwards. But I'd recommend seeing how it goes without them, assuming your goal is maximum fat loss and not maximum performance.

[Chris Correia]

Adam: Your assumptions are right on re fat loss. Thanks for that (very clear!) explanation.

10% here I come!