DE bench and Iso's - JP Fitness Forums

DKing · 04-20-2004, 05:01 PM

Here is something I have been thinking about trying out.
On my dynamic effort bench days, before speed benches, using iso holds right off the chest and at the midpoint of the bench, which for me are the hardest parts of the lift. Once I get it through the midpoint, I can blast it up.
My reasons: In Christian Thibs new book, he talks about the fact that isometrics recruit more muscle fiber that either the yeilding or overcoming. This, plus the fact iso's aren't as trying on muscle glycogen stores makes it seem like they could be a good idea. That it would help me recruit more fibers, and get used to working in my weak points.

The only thing that really holds me back is that in previous posts on Isos, Bill talked about how Iso's tend to be a max effort exercise when holding around 8 seconds, which would be the length, and so I am worried about too much fatigue using a max effort lift on both my DE and my ME day. Anyone have any insight? Experience?

Danny

Bill Hartman · 04-20-2004, 05:29 PM

Danny,

You can combine the isos at a submax level (think repetition method weights) and dynamic work (as mentioned in CT's book...isomiometric and isoballistic depending on loads) as this has been shown to improve speed strength. It's just like performing a complex (Dos and Alwyn are the experts in this case).

However, it may not be the best choice. Here's a catch that kind of bugs me. There are conflicting forms of neural drive involved. The isos rely on duration of neural drive and the dynamic rely on rate of neural drive (if the load is light enough!!).

For someone that falls in the middle of "neural drive dominance", combining the iso/dynamic may be a great choice. For someone who tends to favor one or the other, it may be less than ideal.

Does that make sense?

Now that being said, I would experiment and see how you respond. There really are no rules, just theory and application.

Are you back on the Westside template?

Bill

DKing · 04-20-2004, 08:01 PM

Bill, thanks for the input. I see what you are saying about the neuro-rate and all that. I think I might try them out, but I think I am going to wait a while until I stagnate or need new ideas. Right now, the gains are coming pretty fast without using the techniques. I just end up thinking a lot when you put me into an hour and a half lecture about Indian Music. But I will remember it and a couple months down the line I might try it out.

About the westside thing, here it goes: I was going to switch over to an auto-regulating program like the one you outlined with a friend who is trying to get stronger for wrestling, once I finished my first cycle through westside but it ended up not working out that would would be able to train together because of class and work and all that. Then I found an awesome Powerlifting gym close to where I work all summer and I also found out that in the next couple years I would have a really good chance of kicking ass in junior division(goes till age 23) powerlifting here in MN so I am going to focus all my efforts there for the next couple years at least. I am sure I will change things around and experiment, but at least for now, I am going pretty strictly Westside.
So now that you know way more than you wanted to know about my personal life...yes, I am back on westside.

Danny

NoMoYoYo · 04-21-2004, 12:00 PM

Danny,

Which Minnesota Powerlifting association are you thinking about competing in? I haven't look recently, but last time I did, there were two or three different ones. In at least one of them, I could compete in the open with some practice, and I'm not even THAT strong. I think the open deadlift was only like 500 lbs.

DKing · 04-21-2004, 12:23 PM

NoMo, not sure which fed I would lift in yet, maybe more than one, depending on who has comps at the time I want to start lifting in them. As of last year in one, I can't remember which, I could just go lift and set the records for the 181 juniors class. I don't think I will be competing for another year or so anyway, I want to get strong enough to compete with all the guys around my size, not just win by default.

Danny

10iscoach · 04-21-2004, 12:23 PM

in Addition, Isometric exercises are sometimes painful for superior athletes. the forces isometrically developed by elite athletes are extremely high. in the isometric imitation of lifting a barbell from the floor, for example, the maximal force Fmm in the most favorable body position may be well over 8,000 N in elite weight lifters. the mechanical load acting on different body structures, such as the lumbar spine may exceed safe levels.
Also, one should keep in mind that isometric training quickly leads to accomodation. in qualified athletes, strength gains peak in about six to eight weeks. thus, the isometric training routine should be planned, maximally, for one to two mesocycles.
in addition,isometric efforts of large, proximally located muscles may produce a high rise in blood pressure. at risk individuals should avoid these exercises. athelets should check their arterial blood pressure at least once a week during periods of isometric training.

Bill Hartman · 04-22-2004, 01:51 PM

10iscoach,

Do mind providing the source from which you copied your post?

Bill

joshman · 04-23-2004, 11:27 AM

Ouch.

Should he be addressed as "Google is coach"?

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

10iscoach · 04-23-2004, 12:47 PM

yeah, you are right someone like me couldn't come up with something like that. I got it from chapter 13 titled ego.Actually I got it from some notes I took at a strength conference for tennis players. see ya board. I have better things to do than type on this board. I thought I could come here and help out, learn things, discuss things, but bigger than you has it right when he said

"
Member
Member # 551

posted April 20, 2004 12:07 PM
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This forum is the worst I've ever posted on. If you don't post a topic about retreat t-shirts or Bill Hartman no one replies. I think you should leave the moderators here to talk amongst themselves, all that really happens here anyhow. I'm done with this forum.
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good luck to you JP you seem like you got things going for you.

NoMoYoYo · 04-23-2004, 12:55 PM

Maybe Bill just wanted to read the whole thing or he has read contradictory evidence. Maybe he wasn't actually accusing 10iscoach of anything. Or maybe he really did assume you wouldn't speak this technically in an internet forum.

Sorry to see you go, but I PERSONALLY really did wish you would have dumbed that down to my level [img]smile.gif[/img]

Jean-Paul · 04-23-2004, 01:14 PM

Actually, I would like to see the source too and read it in its entirety. I think maybe you are being a little too defensive. I certainly appreciate your participation on this forum. I do share NoMo's sentiment though... I am a fitness pro and sometimes I have to struggle through some of your posts. Peace, Bro!

Bill Hartman · 04-23-2004, 01:59 PM

10iscoaches' post looked very familiar and I thought I might have the original source in my library somewhere so I could comment more effectively. It is not written as an off-the-cuff post (comments such as in addition, thus, Fmm, 8,000N). Sorry you felt that my comment implied otherwise. I don't care whether it was copied or not. That wasn't the point.

It's a very narrow view of isometric application seeing as every reverseable movement (eccentric to isometric to concentric) includes the isometric component. It also implies that the only method of application is at max effort levels. Certainly, you will accomodate to any form of training after some period of time. It simply requires a change of stimulus. In this case, a change from max effort isos to submaximal methods for longer holds, explosive isometrics or oscillatory isometrics may continue to be sufficient stimulus for adaptation.

Bill

joshman · 04-23-2004, 02:55 PM

Here's where I apologize for ticking off 10iscoach and putting words in Bill's virtual mouth.

Sorry 10iscoach for taking a swipe at you.

Sorry Bill for putting words in your virtual mouth.

I'll go sit in the corner now.

Q. · 04-23-2004, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 10iscoach:
posted April 20, 2004 12:07 PM
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This forum is the worst I've ever posted on. If you don't post a topic about retreat t-shirts or Bill Hartman no one replies. I think you should leave the moderators here to talk amongst themselves, all that really happens here anyhow. I'm done with this forum.
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Personally, I would hate to see you go. I've found your posts to be a great addition to the other information on this forum.

I do find the post above a little bit offensive, however, and I'm not sure how much of these sentiments you share. Those of us who participated in the retreat wanted to continue with and perhaps develop the "connection" that was made by getting together IN PERSON. This forum doesn't have a very high volume so, naturally, it stands out. If it were the MH forum, it would probably be lost in the shuffle.

I'm not a moderator but I participate regularly so the last criticism is simply not true. I've, also, had PLENTY of posts that got no reply whatsoever. Oh well... I don't feel anyone owes me a response but, if I post something of interest, someone will usually repond. I think the implication that it's something personal is a bit childish. I often don't respond to posts when I have nothing useful to add... but, yes, I do anyway at other times!

So, 10iscoach, I hope you'll reconsider because I appreciate your input but, if you decide to go, I hope you find a place that is more to your liking!