Lower Back, Upper Back, and Core - JP Fitness Forums

Josh Rider · 12-01-2007, 01:05 PM

Since I first entered a gym almost 1 and a half years ago, I've not taken Core and Lower Back work seriously and I'm beginning to see consequences in my back curvature/posture. In term's of abs work, I've pretty much ONLY done crunches(on ball and off) as well as Captain's chair. As for lower back, nothing aside from light deadlifts, which I've only now began incorporating in to my workout, yet my form is effected because of my weak lower back. My back curvature goes in at the lower back and then comes out a lot but then seems to curve again a bit too quickly. What lower back excersizes and abs excersizes would you guys recommend?

As for my upper back, I work it out as regularly as my chest but I never feel sore in that area and my rows are not catching up to my bench press number at all. Should I change the ratio of Back-Chest sets in my workouts? What else can I do?

John Izzo · 12-01-2007, 01:54 PM

Josh,
A couple of things which I think other posters will elaborate on or add to:
Work on your core by focusing on isometric bridges:
Planks, Hip Bridge/Shoulder Core Stand (which is most notably known as Side Planks) Work on holding each pose for 45-60-90 seconds. Watch your form during these holds as it should be impeccable. Begin with shorter hold times (~30 sec) and work your way up. If you perform these with less than perfect form, you are wasting your time and adding insult to injury.
Secondly, work on some wood chop-style movements (rotation) using cables and some oblique work. You can also add in some low back extensions (not hyper), and some Y, T, W, Ls (google or search forum for prior posts).
Lastly, lay off the chest for a while or cut back on the volume. Your complaint that those muscles "never" get sore is an indication to me that you over work them too much. Focus on vertical and horizontal pulling for back work. Rows, rows, rows...

Hope this helps.

Josh Rider · 12-03-2007, 10:25 AM

The part about my chest workout was that they ALWAYS get sore, and feel sore for 1-2 days after. My back on the other hand, never feels like I worked it out. Anyway, I bet most likely the advice stays the same: I have to cut down on chest workouts and increase my rows.

What do you think of Good Mornings? Are they a good choice? And, The Y, W, T, and Ls...I searched google and past posts but couldn't find anything on them.

trainerty · 12-03-2007, 10:32 AM

Izzo gave you some good advice amigo. Static strength should be prioritized over attempting more dynamic movements (the whole crawl before you walk thing).

Good mornings are a pretty good exercise along with any other "closed chained" exercise (generally any exercise that you have to stand up and do).

I personally have folks learn deadlifting and straight leg deadlifitng before good mornings....but each to their own.

Good luck

Josh Rider · 12-03-2007, 11:10 AM

What is the difference between straight leg and stiff-leg deadlifts?

Lisa~ · 12-03-2007, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Rider

And, The Y, W, T, and Ls...I searched google and past posts but couldn't find anything on them.

I posted pictures of the YTWL near the end of this thread:
Correct YTWL?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Rider

What is the difference between straight leg and stiff-leg deadlifts?

Different people use different terminology, but, whatever name you call it, a rounded-back style deadlift is not recommended. A Romanian deadlift (10-20 degree knee bend, neutral back throughout execution, bending from the hip) is an excellent exercise choice for most general fitness clients. Sometimes people use stiff-legged or other names when they mean the same thing as an RDL. It all depends on where you learned the names.

For your situation, I wouldn't recommend any deadlift variation until you can control your core for the duration of a set. Planks and side planks come first, then core control with hip movement.

Tony Gentilcore · 12-04-2007, 07:44 AM

I've been training people for a little over five years now, and I can count on one hand the number of people whom I felt were "advanced" enough to perform goodmornings safely and effectively. There is no doubt that they are a superb movement to increase posterior chain strength, but for someone in your situation, I highly doubt that they would be a wise choice. I think they would do more harm than good.

Focus on rack pulls (partial deadlifts) from knee height, LOTS of single leg training, pull-throughs, and glute-ham raises if you have access to one.

Izzo hit the nail on the head with his recommendations on core training. Lots of planks for you. I'm also a big fan of Pallof Presses, REVERSE crunches, birddogs, and landmines.

Frank.S · 12-04-2007, 12:56 PM

Tony, what would a client have to do to preform good mornings with you? Do you mean there is a flexibility problem, technique problem, or just that they are unnecessary for most? Im a bit confused.

Cynic · 12-04-2007, 09:51 PM

If I had to speculate on Tony's thinking, I think it would probably have to do with weak lumber, hip and transverse abdominal muscles which are needed to stabilize the body when it's in such a vulnerable state.

Tony Gentilcore · 12-05-2007, 06:30 AM

Every movement or exercise has a "cost/benefit" with me. Goodmornings happen to be one of those that have a very high cost IMO. Look at the average trainee and you will find someone who is weak with poor lumbo-pelvic-hip mechanics (ie: tight and poor kinesthetic awareness). I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're unnecessary, since I DO love them. But I just think there is a huge learning curve with goodmornings, and I often cringe when I see trainers or forum readers just casually throw them out as something that everyone should be doing.

Jean-Paul · 12-05-2007, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Gentilcore

Every movement or exercise has a "cost/benefit" with me. Goodmornings happen to be one of those that have a very high cost IMO. Look at the average trainee and you will find someone who is weak with poor lumbo-pelvic-hip mechanics (ie: tight and poor kinesthetic awareness). I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're unnecessary, since I DO love them. But I just think there is a huge learning curve with goodmornings, and I often cringe when I see trainers or forum readers just casually throw them out as something that everyone should be doing.

Agreed 100%. I have some clients who've never done them. I like Tony's advice about doing partial movements with DLs. I also do this with my clients. Especially those with tight hams/hips and back/knee problems. I have a safety cage that I can adjust the depth they can lower a barbell to.

Ditto on Izzo's advice on the bridging. That is a huge part of my regimen with my clients. I have 60 y-o women who have no history with weights who can hold a plank solidly for over a minute. It is easy enough to do without hurting someone and it has a huge pay-off (using Tony's cost/benefit formula).

Frank.S · 12-05-2007, 06:53 PM

Interesting stuff, lately ive not been a big fan of good mornings for myself, I feel i have enough strength / flexibility /awareness to do them but I just dont get much carryover on the other lifts from them when compared to other things.

Ive thought about doing 1/2 range GM'ings where you only go down a bit past 45 degrees as I see lots of westside guys do them this way. But, seems kind of sketchy.

Lost Dog · 12-05-2007, 09:12 PM

Frank, you can GM more than most people here can even lift.

The only thing you can't GM is your grocery cart.

Alcoholiday · 12-05-2007, 11:56 PM

i really like GMs, and i think if you do them properly and are in healthy shape, (as Tony mentioned)they are good.

i really don't like rack pulls/elevated deadlifts. For me, it's really easy to screw your form up on these, and round. Even when i don't, i feel it more in my lower back (in a bad way) than i do in the rest of my back or hams when i do deadlifts from the floor, or good mornings.

that's just me though....