JP Fitness Forums powered by fitness insite  
Google
 
Web forums.jpfitness.com

Go Back   JP Fitness Forums > Fitness > Training Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Training Discussion Ask workout questions or share your knowledge.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-24-2007, 12:35 PM   #1 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23
Default Exercise substitution help

Im about to do Cosgrove and Waterbury's "Real Fast Fat Loss" program and I need to make a substitution for and I was wondering if someone could let me know if this is a comprable change.

Their routine calls for:
Squat jump to chin-up with a knee tuck
Rest 30s

I'm thinking of making this switch:
Squat jump to a front Lat-pulldown to a reverse crunch

The reason I need to make the substitution is because I cannot do an unassisted chin up so the chin-up knee tuck combo wont work for me.

Please advise/chime in asap as Im going to begin this program in a day.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Jackson
jackson is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2007, 12:42 PM   #2 (permalink)
will fight you
 
PowerManDL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bizarro World, down near Rand McNally
Posts: 2,718
Default

Since the metabolic action is (most likely) the relevant component here, not the specific movement pattern, I'll go ahead and say "sure".
__________________

Articles | Blog | Pirate my book.
"Yeah, but you did your post grad thesis on trolling, so you don't count."
-JP, endorsing how awesome I am
PowerManDL is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2007, 12:59 PM   #3 (permalink)
Butterfly Viking General
 
karky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,812
Default

Aren't you suppose to jump up and catch the bar? So it will be like a jump pullup, with a limited rom?
karky is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2007, 01:30 PM   #4 (permalink)
Seņor Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 7,541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karky View Post
Aren't you suppose to jump up and catch the bar? So it will be like a jump pullup, with a limited rom?
That's what I'm thinking. The jump squat should segue seamlessly into a pull-up.
Cynic is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2007, 01:58 PM   #5 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23
Default

Yes the squat jump goes right to the chin up but ummm i cant do an unassisted chin up so I need some sort of sub guys...help?
jackson is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-24-2007, 02:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
Seņor Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 7,541
Default

Well, if you can do squat jump/jump squat to a pull-down, do it.

How are you going to manage a knee tuck though?
Cynic is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2007, 05:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23
Default

Thats the thing. I dont really know what to do for a substitution thats why Im here asking you all for help.

I was just going to do similar movements to work the same areas but from what you all are saying thats not the point.

Do you have any suggestions for what I can substitute the original moves to?

Original:
jump squat to chin-up to knee tuck. What else can I do since I cannot do an unassisted chin up and a resulting knee tuck?

Help, help...
jackson is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2007, 06:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
Seņor Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 7,541
Default

Let me ask you one question:

What is your training age? IOW, how long have you been working out, seriously?

I don't mean to belittle, but I'm 43 and I can do at least one squat jump to pull-up and I've been away from serious workouts since Jan/Feb.

Maybe you're not ready for such an advance program? That program is a major piece. It's intended to affect a maximal metabolic effect.

With that said, perhaps something that builds up to the ideal is more suited. You could take off your socks, use your toes and still run out of counting space for the number of professionally designed programs available, both commercially and freely. All of them will progress you toward your goal. Keep in mind one idea:

Diet is 80% of the struggle!


Do you workout at home or at a gym? If at home, HGM, phase 1, beginner is a serious metabolic booster. Also, NROL's FLI/II/III are the most kickass ass-kicking programs I've ever done.

If at a gym, NROL is good, I hear good things about Turbulence Training (but no exp), also a few others.

Other people can chime in at their convenience.
Cynic is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2007, 10:59 PM   #9 (permalink)
dividing by zero
 
LisaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Orange Cty, CA
Posts: 6,487
Default

So, I went and looked at that program. that is the last exercise in a superset. if it were me, I'd do the squat jump up to the bar, pull hard, then hang do the leg raise.
__________________
Training Log


Quote:
Water babies singing in a lily-pool delight
Blue powder monkeys praying in the dead of night
LisaS is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2007, 11:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23
Default

Thanks everyone for your input. Lisa I looked at the demo again and I came to the same conclusion you metioned. If I cant pull myself up for the chin-up which who knows I may be able to now, I can at least pull as hard as possible and definitely do the tuck.

Again, thanks everyone for your input. I'll even come back and let you know if I did it completely or whatever I got done.

Cynic what is HGM?

Jackson
jackson is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2007, 11:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
will fight you
 
PowerManDL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bizarro World, down near Rand McNally
Posts: 2,718
Default

Oh man I don't like that program one bit. Too much volume in all the wrong places, not enough concern over what really affects fat loss/body composition.
__________________

Articles | Blog | Pirate my book.
"Yeah, but you did your post grad thesis on trolling, so you don't count."
-JP, endorsing how awesome I am
PowerManDL is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 06:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
Seņor Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 7,541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackson View Post
Cynic what is HGM?
Homegrown Muscle

Find it here:

Essential Reading - Topic Powered by eve community
Cynic is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 12:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23
Default

PowermanDL do you care to share more on exactly what you dont like about it and what you think it should focus more on? What would you recommend in its stead?

Just curious

Jackson
jackson is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 12:52 PM   #14 (permalink)
will fight you
 
PowerManDL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bizarro World, down near Rand McNally
Posts: 2,718
Default

My approach in working with physique-oriented goals is a very simple one. I've got a handful of templates I use, based on 3-4 sessions a week, but the strength sessions are always oriented around limited volume and economy of training.

Metabolic type training is thrown in as assistance work after the muscle-preserving workouts are handled. Metabolic training should not be a priority in place of muscle retention; diet is going to be 90% of your weight loss results. Metabolic training is icing on the cake, and it will under no circumstances replace the core strength sessions.

A full-body workout might be

Squat/Front squat - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12
Bench/Incline bench/OHP - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12
Chinup/Barbell row - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12

Assistance exercises can be thrown in as follow-ups in a single session or in separate modules on a different day; this is also where I'd throw in your metabolic work.

I've had some of my girls training on a six-day schedule like this:

1 - Heavy Volume Strength
2 - Assistance
3 - Light Strength
4 - Assistance
5 - Heavy Load Strength
6 - Assistance

Or

1 - Heavy Volume Upper Body
2 - Heavy Volume Lower Body
3 - Assistance
4 - Heavy Load Upper Body
5 - Heavy Load Lower Body
6 - Assistance

In this case, heavy volume = 24-40 reps per part per session, so potentially anything from 5x5 to 4x10 would be workable

Heavy load training would be maximal-type stuff.

The assistance work can be anything from pump-n-tone stuff for the upper body to circuit-type stuff to barbell complexes. True intensive intervals, if they're in the program, are done on the strength days. Ideally in a different session, but most don't have that kind of time so they're done after strength work.

The key factor to me in a dieting individual is stress management. Recovery is at a premium on lowered calories, and this only becomes more pronounced as you become leaner and have to further reduce calories. Leptin is a hell of a drug.

So what works in a well-fed person likely won't have the same effect.

The main steps I take:

1) reduce volume. 5x5 will inevitably have to become 3x5 or on some exercises 5x3. Sets of anything over 5-6 reps will need to be reduced to 1-2 per session. After awhile even doing sets of 5 might be too much; they can create large amounts of eccentric stress in their own right, so dropping back to triples or even singles/doubles will still have the required effect on muscle mass
2) ie, this is maintenance time, not development time. This also means no PR chasing. I always say you can take a PR if it comes to you, but you shouldn't be aggressively trying to force them out
3) frequency of exposure to muscle-retaining loads needs to be high to keep PS high. At least 2-3 times a week, but possibly scaled back to once every 5 days. Only less than this as a last resort.
4) when in doubt, do less. Recovery is more important than being in the gym. The order of scaling back your training should be something to the effect of volume --> frequency --> intensity. Do less per session, do less sessions, then as a last resort take weight off the bar.
5) Activity is good, but all activity has effects. HIIT, complexes, etc are nice and all, but they require you to pay the piper in terms of systemic stresses. I'd rather see people doing 20-40 minutes of low-intensity work on the treadmill than doing sprints or complexes at a time when recovery is at a premium. I tend to take my girls off any of that intensive anaerobic work 4-6 weeks out. I limit it to modified tempo runs and low-intensity work for that very reason.

In other words, I stick to basics, an emphasis on diet, and stress manipulation.

What I don't like about that workout:
- Too much emphasis on the "metabolic" stuff
- Not enough emphasis on muscle maintenance

In other words, it's exactly the opposite of what I like to see.
__________________

Articles | Blog | Pirate my book.
"Yeah, but you did your post grad thesis on trolling, so you don't count."
-JP, endorsing how awesome I am
PowerManDL is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 04:43 PM   #15 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23
Default

Thanks for the in-depth reply. I will remember this. Basically what youre saying is Cosgrove & Waterbury's RFFL Program will lean me out but possibly at the expense of some muscle....am I correct?

Truthfully I dont have 6 days to commit to the gym. Im working with the time I have (3 days) and trying to get rid of about 20 lbs and keep and perhaps develop some more muscle. My main goal though is to get lean and I am willing to have to work on muscle development in the next phase. If I can rid myself of these 20 lbs between now and the end of January then I'll have the late winter and spring to make the muscles pop.

I agree diet is 80-90% of the key to obtaining this and Ive got that area on lock. Im just trying to find the right program to assist the diet during the process.

I performed Workout A of RFFL today and it was definitely tiresome but enjoyable. Im always open for suggestions so keep them coming.

Thanks again.

Jackson
jackson is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 04:52 PM   #16 (permalink)
will fight you
 
PowerManDL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bizarro World, down near Rand McNally
Posts: 2,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackson View Post
Thanks for the in-depth reply. I will remember this. Basically what youre saying is Cosgrove & Waterbury's RFFL Program will lean me out but possibly at the expense of some muscle....am I correct?
I'm not saying that at all. I know nothing of your current status.

I'm saying I don't like how it's set up and I'd never use it personally or with anyone I train because it does not jive with my philosophy and with what has worked optimally in my experience.

Quote:
I agree diet is 80-90% of the key to obtaining this and Ive got that area on lock. Im just trying to find the right program to assist the diet during the process.
This would be essentially any program you'd use for "size" or "strength" (as much as I hate those arbitrary labels), just scaled back as I outlined above.

The six-day example I gave is just that: an example. You could just as easily be successful with three or even two days of strength-based training per week.

The specific program is the least of your worries when dieting, assuming the essentials are contained within it. The core of that is maintaining your muscle with appropriate strength training while letting the diet do the work. The metabolic work is icing on the cake, not (again IMO and IME) the focus of training.

That approach is only loosely different from the "high reps to tone" mentality.
__________________

Articles | Blog | Pirate my book.
"Yeah, but you did your post grad thesis on trolling, so you don't count."
-JP, endorsing how awesome I am
PowerManDL is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 05:29 PM   #17 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23
Default

Well, I'll see how the RFFL works and if Im not getting the results I want then I'll switch...

Ive had great experience with programs from Cosgrove so, I'll go with it until I experience different.

Truthfully, I dont see how I would lose strength/size following RFFL. I mean if Im lifting appropriately then why shouldnt this work?

RFFL - rep/set scheme varies just like the one you mentioned and If I'm lifting the appropriate % of my 1rm for the exercises why would my muscles suffer? Im open to learn otherwise so enlighten me if you can.
jackson is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2007, 05:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
will fight you
 
PowerManDL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bizarro World, down near Rand McNally
Posts: 2,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackson View Post
Truthfully, I dont see how I would lose strength/size following RFFL. I mean if Im lifting appropriately then why shouldnt this work?
That depends entirely on how strong you are and how much muscle mass you're holding right now. If you're of relatively low qualification in that regard, then I doubt you'll lose much of anything.

Again, it's not my cup of tea because it does not fit my outlook. This does not mean it cannot be effective for your particular circumstances.

Quote:
RFFL - rep/set scheme varies just like the one you mentioned and If I'm lifting the appropriate % of my 1rm for the exercises why would my muscles suffer? Im open to learn otherwise so enlighten me if you can.
Not all variation is equal simply for the sake of being variation.

Unless you're very new, I don't see 4x10 and 4x15 as doing much if anything to maintain muscle mass. The loads involved will be too low. A rep-maximum load, which could potentially do the trick, is a far cry from what you'd be handling for 40 to 60 total reps.

That kind of work is what would fall under the category of either developmental muscle training on the strength-endurance side of things or the metabolic action they're talking about. I'm cautious, possibly too cautious, about overreaching and fatigue in dieting people, and I take a very minimalist approach.

Then again, my entire idea structure is devoted to creating performance with aesthetic emerging as a side effect of this. Improve the entire system and the appearance will come with it.

I like my people to get stronger/faster and generally improve those qualities while letting the training effect of that and the diet handle appearance. With that in mind, I tend to have relatively strong competitors. My gf for example was benching 170 lbs and deadlifting around 335 (for reps) at a body weight of 150 only 4-5 weeks out from her figure competition. Training like this wouldn't tend to help them move towards that goal, hence why I won't use it.

Not saying it won't work, per se. Just that I don't like it. Too much like a pump and tone workout that I inevitably have to spend months de-programming people from thinking is desirable.

Strength, performance, and manipulation of systemic responses come first. Physique emerges from those elements.

Your mileage may vary.
__________________

Articles | Blog | Pirate my book.
"Yeah, but you did your post grad thesis on trolling, so you don't count."
-JP, endorsing how awesome I am
PowerManDL is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:57 PM.

Features ...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0
Ad Management by RedTyger