Frames of Reference

[tscm]

I have noticed with interest lately the huge amount of attention being paid to endurance activities by internet strength and conditioning writers, and I think something needs to be noted, and that is that none of these guys seem to have a real frame of reference for what they are talking about:

1. These guys do not train elite endurance athletes.

2. These guys have never done any serious endurance training and as such have no "UNDER THE BAR" type experience. It is interesting that the same guys promote said experience as such a necessity to be able to teach how to lift and train for strength.

3. Following on from 2, they apparently can teach people correct running technique without being a running coach or having been a track athlete themselves.

4. They obviously have zero idea how endurance athletes actually train, most likely because the only "endurance athletes" they train are recreational and trying to COMPLETE races rather than RACE OR COMPETE in them. Evidence of this is how writers will rave about their clients finshing triathlons in a mediocre time but a lift showing better equivalent strength (315 deadlift?) is not at all an achievement. Specifically:

i) They do not understand that EVERY and I mean EVERY elite endurance athlete does serious mileage and time on the road, most of it at a moderate pace, apparently though these guys who have NEVER trained anyone to their level or EVER trained at that level know better than the elites. I challenge any trainer to show me a National level endurance athlete who's training is not mostly aerobic endurance focussed.

ii) They think that a short race means little training. NEWS FLASH: even 800 metres runners (race length = 100-110 seconds) run at least 80-100km a week in their base phases. For milers the average is closer to 140km and the "only race for miuntes". To any of the guys at college, ask your friends in the XC team what sort of mileage they do, and also, what sort of mileage the #1 runner on their team does.

Overall, my suspicion is that recreational runners and triathletes contribute a massive market share of the fitnesss industry and these trainers understandably are looking to get into this market. It does strike that on the internet the fitness "authorities" a huge bias towards maximal strength training and little understanding of anything else. Typifying this a post from one recently published "fitness expert" on another message board:

"ha ha! yeah, we have talked about the biggest difference in performance in endurance events as well....strength. If strength were not the boggest factor in marathon performance, the females would beat the males right?!"

I would assume this coach has never heard or running economy, VO2 max or lactate threshold.

Seriously though, I think its about time the internet fitness world got a bigger FRAME OF REFERENCE. The "circle jerk" of experts saying the same old crap won't teach you anything new. Some names to investigate for those looking to learn:

-Vern Gambetta

-Percy Cerutty

And finally, some examples of how endurance athletes really train:

Saif Saaeed Shaheen (aka Stephen Cherono) World Campion 3k Steeplechase 2003 and 2005 : Training of Saif Saaeed Shaheen(Stephen Cherono) - 12:48 5k, 7:57 3k SC

Hicham El Guerroj Olympic an World Champion for 1500 :
Training of Saif Saaeed Shaheen(Stephen Cherono) - 12:48 5k, 7:57 3k SC

[PowerManDL]

Vern and Charlie Francis have encompassed about all I know about it. A few others here and there as well.

Spending some time over on EliteTrack hasn't hurt either.

Then again, I don't have a whole ton of interest in (extreme) endurance-type training, but knowing and understanding it is still a Good Idea™

[JoshDunn]

"ha ha! yeah, we have talked about the biggest difference in performance in endurance events as well....strength. If strength were not the biggest factor in marathon performance, the females would beat the males right?!"

Who said that. I've seen that somewhere recently. Can't remember where.

[gobbla]

examples...I read the rant, now humor me.

[austintwo]

you sound a little bitter . . . maybe that's why I feel like I'm missing your point.

[LisaS]

I'm a little confused. Is the #1 post a lengthy quote from somewhere/someone else - or a new post from the person just for here? And if the latter - is there a context? Has there been a lot of discussion here abouts with respect to endurance training for elite athletes that he is disagreeing with? Are the "these guys" and "they" that he references people here?

[Frank.S]

I have a few certifications for coaching endurance athletes (xc mountain biking/road biking). Both where a waste of time. If you ever see me give any advice to an endurance athlete, stop me. I woudlnt even attempt to tell somone to do certain things in an activity that I dont even do anymore.

[tscm]

Gobbla, here are some I could dig up just quickly will see if I can find some more:

Some common points to notice are i) 2-3 interval or fartlek style workouts each week and more in certain phases. ii) A huge volume of steady running to both further enhance aerobic fitness and promote recovery.

The Kenyan Cross Country Team: kenyan cross-country system

Craig Mottram (World #3 over 5k, world championship medallist, put him here as he is a rarity in not coming from the East African system):
Discussion of his Training Structure by coach Nic Bideau (also coach of Benita Johnson, World cross country champion 2004):
speedygeoff's school of running: Article by Nic Bideau

Description of Moroccan Training System + Training of Hicham El Guerrouj: Training of Hicham El Guerrouge 1500m World Record Holder

Training of Dieter Baumann (Olympic 5k Champion) written by coach and wife Isabella Baumann (Scroll to page 8): http://www.britishmilersclub.com/bmcnews/1997spring.pdf

Training of Dave Moorcroft (Former 5k world record holder, note huge differemce in mileage between phases), pages 6-12: http://www.britishmilersclub.com/bmcnews/1999spring.pdf
(Page 27 includes discussion with exercerpt of training of Brendan Foster, olympic medallist):

Sunday: 20 miles steady running
Monday: a.m. 10 miles steady to work
p.m. 8 miles steady
Tuesday: a.m. 5 miles steady
p.m. 5 miles steady
p.m. 3 x 800 (average 2.01.3) [approx 4’]
[rest] 4 x 100m.
Wednesday: a.m. 9 miles steady to work
p.m. 2 x 8 x 200 (fast) [20"] [rest] 4 x 100.
Thursday: a.m. 6 miles steady
p.m. 5 miles steady
p.m. 5 miles steady
Friday: a.m. 6 miles steady to work
p.m. Race

Saturday: 15 miles quiet fast.

Steve Ovett's Training from same link (He won gold in the 800 and bronze in the 1500 at the 1980 olympics, again not the periodisation):

A ÒTYPICALÓ WINTER WEEKÕS TRAINING
NOV-MAR 1979/80

Day Time Session Effort

Sun a.m. 10 miles Ð road 57/60 mins
p.m. 10 miles Ð road 54/55 mins
Mon a.m. 5 miles Ð road Easy Ð 35 mins
p.m. 10 miles Ð road Fast/steady Ð 52/53 mins
Tue a.m. 10 miles Ð road Hard Ð on road 4 x 300m approx with fast jog rec then across another very steep hill, 4 x 400m approx
jog rec.
Wed a.m. 10 miles Ð road 58/60 mins
p.m. 10 miles Plus technique work at Crystal Palace
Thu a.m. 5 miles Ð road Easy Ð 35 mins
p.m. 10 miles Ð road Steady Ð 55/58 mins continuous
Fri a.m. 5 miles Ð road Easy Ð 35 mins
p.m. 5 miles Ð road Easy Ð 35 mins
Sat a.m. 5 miles Ð road Easy Ð 35 mins
p.m. 6 x 1000m Ð park Hard Ð with 30 secs Ð 1 min rec (in spikes)

A ÒTYPICALÓ SPRING WEEKÕS TRAINING
APR-JUN 1980

Sun a.m. 10 miles Ð road Easy Ð 60/65 mins
p.m. 4 miles Easy + 5 x 3 x 200m (27"/28") [30", 3 Ô]
Mon a.m. 5 miles Ð road Easy Ð 35 mins
p.m. Track session 5 x 300m (37.4" av.) [2 Ô]
Tue a.m. 5 miles Easy Ð 35 mins
p.m. 6 x 700m Ð in park Very hilly at start, long downhill to finish (90% effort) [2Õ] (in spikes) + 10 x 100m strides at end
Wed a.m. 5 miles Ð road Easy Ð 35 mins
p.m. Track session Technique work Ð high knees etc, 5 x 150m (16"/17") [walk] +10 x 100m (change of pace 11"/13")
[walk] + 4 x 60m (standing start) [3Õ]
Thu a.m. Rest Weights in morning.
p.m. Hills Ð park 6 x 30 secs (in spikes Ð 90% effort) [jog], 10 mins jog, then 8 x 15 secs [walk]. Aim at good knee lift
and technique.
Fri a.m. 5 miles Ð road Easy Ð 35 mins
p.m. 5 miles Plus 4 x 5 x 100m (14"/15") [starting at 30 secs on the first set to 5 secs rec on the last set].
Sat a.m. 6 x 1000m in park (in spikes) [30"/60"]
p.m. 5 miles Easy - + 6 x 100m strides on grass

A ÒTYPICALÓ SUMMER WEEKÕS TRAINING
JUN-SEPT 1981

Sun a.m. 10 miles Ð road Easy Ð 65 mins
p.m. Strides Ð grass 10 x 100m (13"/14" accelerations, change of pace).
Mon a.m. Rest
p.m. Track session Change of pace 4 x 400m (first 200m 28"/29", last 200m 23"/24")) [5Õ].
Tue a.m. Easy run 35 mins
p.m. Strides 6 x 100m Ð Relaxed
Wed Rest day
Thu Travel to London, then to Oslo
Fri p.m. Easy run 30 mins + strides

Sat p.m. Race 1 mile Bislett Games Ð equalled World Record for Mile

LisaS: I have deliberately not mentioned anyone in particluar. Instead I reference the fact that all the "experts" followed by people here come from a very similar background, yet claim to be experts on how to run or design conditioning training, often under the tenet of being "fat loss" experts. If you're looking to know how to design, periodise and progress your interval session or refine your running technique for these sessions, the experts you should be listening to are not the same "experts" who no little other than maximum strength training. Overall, I feel people need an increased FRAME OF REFERENCE.

[tscm]

An example of what I'm talking about:

Thursday, November 8, 2007

A Good Lesson for Endurance Athletes


I’ve spoken on many occasions about how you need to get fit to run, not run to get fit. This is applicable not only to staying healthy as an endurance athlete, but also to performing at a high level. You don’t have to look any further than the results of this past weekend’s U.S. Olympic Trials in the marathon.

For those that missed it, Ryan Hall not only broke the Olympic Trials record with a 2:09:02 finish, but also bested his nearest competitor by over two minutes. This adds to a celebrated list of accomplishments for the former Stanford standout; this list includes the American marathon debut record and American record in the half-marathon (59:43).

The most impressive part?

Hall started as a miler – and didn’t even do his first marathon until April of 2007. Everything else was 1500m, 1,600m, 4,000m, and 5,000m – nothing that involved running for more than an hour.

So, the next time you’re told that the secret to “breaking” into the running world is to simply up your mileage, think of Ryan Hall…running fast.



Posted by Cressey Training Systems at 10:25:00 AM
Labels: Endurance, Eric Cressey, Sports Specialization, training

I'm pretty sure Ryan Hall has ran more than an hour plenty whilst running middle distance, refer the above example of training of 800/1500/5000 runners. Then again, maybe it was his maximum strength that put him ahead of the pack .

[tscm]

Double Post.

[PowerManDL]

I'm handling the strength program for a marathon runner at the moment, and she's doing a pretty healthy volume of runs, both pure distance and long interval-type work.
I wouldn't dare try to program that, since I know about fuck and all about running. All I'm doing at this point is making sure the strength work she is doing is having as little impact as possible on the running.

[gobbla]

t> I was referring more to "who is saying these things\what did they actually say" more than not agreeing with your general thought on it. IMO Eric does tend to over state strength training for runners\conveniently not mention the majority that find success with very little to no strength training, however that doesn't seem to be the case in this particular instance. I concur with his point "running fast = running fast"

[Jean-Paul]

TSCM, don't take this the wrong way, but your posting style is extremely annoying.

Okay, I don't know that there is a right way to take that, but I just wanted to say that.

Looking back through your posts, it's obviously have an inferiority complex with Cressey and a few others because you bring their names up a lot, and you are always trying to discredit them.

If you want to do edurance training, great. Knock yourself out. Just remember that you are on a forum primarily for people who do resisance training. You're not going to convert us. We're pretty hard-wired for this stuff, and you probably already know that, but you seem to have a need to be right.

[tscm]

JP, no inferiority complex here, in fact I quite enjoy much of the stuff Eric writes and have found it very useful for my own training, particularly his stuff on corrective exercise.

I am not trying to convert anyone, I am pointing out that some "experts" promote ideas and methods that they don't really understand. I also find that there does seem to exist a group who promote certain methods such as maximal strength training as the ideal method for hypertrophy for instance. IMO there is definitely a problem when all the information people read might as well be written by a single person.

Don't take this the wrong way, but to be honest JP, but some of the best evidence of this was when you told how bad Vern Gambetta's seminar was but how I really should listen to Brian Grasso. Whilst I'm sure Brian is indeed very competent, the comparison really spelt out just how warped a sense of reality people have when it comes to t-nation style authors.

[tscm]

Gobbla,

Running fast in endurance events requires a lot of "steady state" endurance work to build aerobic fitness. You cannot do intervals every day, and if you look at the schedules above they are rarely done much more than 3 times a week.

To say "So, the next time you’re told that the secret to “breaking” into the running world is to simply up your mileage, think of Ryan Hall…running fast." is very poor advice indeed. Mileage is not the be all and end all, but it is very important.

Steady state work DOES NOT make you fat, nor does it make you much slower. Westside Barbell, who seem to be respected here, have videos on youtube of their athletes doing 30 rep sets of chins and rows and Louie Simmmons has suggested DB Benching for five minutes straight, all in the context of a maximal strength sport.

To progress and be consistently successful with your training you need adequate variety and recovery in your training. IMO there are few people qualified to do lactic intervals three and more times a week year around. For many that will satisfy psychological variables, but is certainly not an optimal way to progress.

Whilst many people don't enjoy conditioning work, for optimal progress it needs to be properly periodised and progressed in terms of volume and intensity, not thrown in as an afterthought, unplanned and just doing whatever you felt like on the day. This holds true whether your goal is fat loss, fitness, health etc.

[gobbla]

t> I'm not arguing any of that. In one of newsletters someone mentioned something along the lines of one coach being different than other coaches and the guy wanted to know what to do. If 99 people out of 100 reached similar improvements with a similar method then you figure that's probably the way to go VS. the 1 guy who does things differently and isnt' particularly special (let's say a US marathon runner) when compared to his peers. Tack on this particular guy is a genetic freak who has been competitive for YEARS. "You want to run your best marathon? Follow my 18 year plan for awesome results!"....it's pointless.

I'm arguing that Eric didn't SAY that you don't need to put in mileage. He didn't SAY steady state was bad. He didn't SAY to do intervals every day. As far as I can see he didn't say much of anything. You put those statements and counter arguments in yourself.

[PowerManDL]

Originally Posted by tscm

Gobbla,

Running fast in endurance events requires a lot of "steady state" endurance work to build aerobic fitness. You cannot do intervals every day, and if you look at the schedules above they are rarely done much more than 3 times a week.

To say "So, the next time you’re told that the secret to “breaking” into the running world is to simply up your mileage, think of Ryan Hall…running fast." is very poor advice indeed. Mileage is not the be all and end all, but it is very important.

Ya, it'd be stupid to assume that any sport's motor demands can be met by any singular training modality. I completely agree with your point that it gets oversimplified; in the context of your complaint, the parties involved are simply exchanging one dogmatic viewpoint for another dogmatic viewpoint.

Steady state work DOES NOT make you fat, nor does it make you much slower. Westside Barbell, who seem to be respected here, have videos on youtube of their athletes doing 30 rep sets of chins and rows and Louie Simmmons has suggested DB Benching for five minutes straight, all in the context of a maximal strength sport.

Ya, again another multi-factorial process. Anything that tries to reduce the concepts *too much* is going to end up in dogma territory. Louie's one of those guys that "gets it" when it comes to this.

In sports training you are above all creating "the athlete"; concerns of specific and specialized performance are still important, but it's critical t