Have to Love Ross Enamait!

[PowerManDL]

Rate of Force Development.

[dmw]

Originally Posted by RedLefty

That's the irony we're talking about -- my lifting numbers are up about 200% since my college days, and I've put on 50 pounds of mostly muscle, but I doubt it did much of anything for my bat speed.

As a college freshman I was 6'2", 145 pounds. I was by far the weakest member of the team in the weight room -- it wasn't even close. We never DL'd but I would put my max at the time around 120 pounds. I was quarter-squatting 115. Yet I had more hitting power than everyone else on the team -- it wasn't even close. I was the only guy who could clear the centerfield fence (415 ft. away and 20 ft. high) and the only guy who could clear the pine trees behind the outfield fence.

I guess I'm wondering how the physics work, and the relationship between strength and power applied in different ways. Swinging a bat is a full-body skill with lots of rotational components, and I seem to be inherently advantaged there (politically correct term for "genetic gift" ). But I'm pretty feeble in powerlifting. OK, I'll be honest, I'm very feeble.

Yet I can drive a golf ball well over 350 yards, which is about the same as what I did in college. Adding another 150 pounds to my deadlift didn't increase my rotational power. That's what gobbla's talking about with doing work you "get a return" on.

I think your example is why a lot of baseball "traditionalists" said for years that weight training would make you too bulky and actually cause you to lose bat speed. With Jose Canseco and the other baseball playing weight lifters seeing advantages from weight training (and supplementation) in the '80's more people got into lifting for baseball. Now, whether these advantages (more strength, ability to recover, etc.) lead directly to more or less bat speed I don't know. I suspect that if you are stronger you have more bat speed but I couldn't prove that.

But, you not included, most guys with big time power are larger, stronger guys. You probably have superior timing, bat speed, and ability to hit the sweet spot, giving you that kind of power even when you weren't as strong.

I happen to think you could have a little more bat speed now that your stronger, but I have no idea how it could be proven.

[PowerManDL]

Traditionally speaking weight training has little if any bearing on unweighted motion, or the ability to move light objects very quickly.

[johnst_nhb]

Originally Posted by PowerManDL

Traditionally speaking weight training has little if any bearing on unweighted motion, or the ability to move light objects very quickly.

What about the by-product(s) of weight training?

(serious question)

[Waittz]

i know i have been MIA for a while, but who is this ross dude and where did this all come from?

[PowerManDL]

Originally Posted by johnst_nhb

What about the by-product(s) of weight training?

(serious question)

That's what I mean. Hypertrophy and increases in maximal strength don't correlate to the ability to move quickly or to move light objects quickly.

[johnst_nhb]

Originally Posted by PowerManDL

That's what I mean. Hypertrophy and increases in maximal strength don't correlate to the ability to move quickly or to move light objects quickly.

Cool. I did not catch that you meant ability to move quickly in the first post. Thanks!

*Edit*

What are your thoughts on DeFranco and his methods for improving explosiveness and speed in his athletes? As you probably know, he uses a derivative of WSB (with additional methods). Can explosiveness be improved by weight training? Can that correlate to unweighted movement (i.e. quickness)?

Again, just soliciting opinions, not trying to be confrontational.

[stingo]

Originally Posted by TheSteve

i know i have been MIA for a while, but who is this ross dude and where did this all come from?

He has his own site. The videos should tell you what he's about.

[PowerManDL]

Originally Posted by johnst_nhb

Cool. I did not catch that you meant ability to move quickly in the first post. Thanks!

*Edit*

What are your thoughts on DeFranco and his methods for improving explosiveness and speed in his athletes? As you probably know, he uses a derivative of WSB (with additional methods). Can explosiveness be improved by weight training? Can that correlate to unweighted movement (i.e. quickness)?

Again, just soliciting opinions, not trying to be confrontational.

DeFranco's template is solid as it can get.

Explosiveness can be improved by training (strength work and reactive/plyo stuff), but I'm still not convinced it does a huge amount. Probably enough to be worth the effort, in the sense that it hones the ability that's there, but not sure in terms of how much it develops the quality.

Explosiveness and quickness are two different things, and unfortunately it seems that quickness doesn't benefit from being stronger or more explosive. As to whether it can be trained, I don't know. But it doesn't correlate at all with the other abilities.

[gobbla]

Originally Posted by Deserve

He said COULD not CAN.

I was talking about Ross. We all know RL is a stud. I want to see this Ross character hit a baseball

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by PowerManDL

That's what I mean. Hypertrophy and increases in maximal strength don't correlate to the ability to move quickly or to move light objects quickly.

Ah ha! The speed had to be present, but perhaps the other element of the force hitting the ball is the ability to continue to move the mass (the bat) through the object. That's where extra strength comes into play, perhaps.

So, player A has fast bat speed, but is not as strong, so when the bat makes contact with the ball, the bat may actually slow a bit.

Player B, who is stonger, has the same bat speed, but his extra strength mean that the bat continues to accelerate through the ball, moreso than in player A's swing.

Also, I bet the mass of the player, perhaps the arms, which are also moving, means there is more mass moving into the object/ball, over the same time/same speed. So, more force.

[gobbla]

Originally Posted by PowerManDL

Ya exactly, it becomes a factor of marginal and diminishing returns.

As an example, start a raw beginner out with a 200 lb squat then build that to 400 over a couple of years. He'll probably be better off for it.

Now say it takes X more years to bring the squat from 400 to 600. Well, that's not necessarily gonna be so easy, and it will most certainly involve very intensive training oriented towards making it happen versus just getting to 400 in the first place. On top of that, the second 200 lb gain won't necessarily net the same performance gains as the first 200 lb gain did. This is all relative, of course, both to the individual and the sport, so you can't just lay out blanket numbers. If somebody's a natural at squatting, they may damn well get to a 600 squat with little trouble.

The point here is what you're emphasizing and focusing the training on.

I'm the first one that's talking maximal strength when it comes to being primary goal for athletic development, but to a point. Once the foundation is built, it tends to be more of a maintenance role rather than a pure developmental quality.

This isn't to say you'd drop or neglect training in that way, you can and should certainly still use it. Just not in the linear gain X in squat = gain Y in running/throwing/kicking fashion that occurs earlier on.

Ie, if somebody happens to come upon a stupid-high lift as a product of the training, great. But I'm not of the mindset that you should "force" a stupid-high lift (with all the training and such that would go into that) in the hopes that it will yield improved performances, when time could be better spent.

That's one of the things that people tend to overlook with Boyle's single leg stuff. Everyone has such a hard on for 1 leg squats and all because he says they're awesome. He also says that he uses bilateral work for younger trainee's that need to get stronger, faster. 99% of "us" are in the category of weaklings, while possibly not young...we're likely not working with enough weight to actually cause harm from the loading itself.

[Ross Enamait]

I want to see this Ross character hit a baseball

Baseball was my first love. Bring it! Ha!

[dmw]

Originally Posted by PowerManDL

DeFranco's template is solid as it can get.

Explosiveness can be improved by training (strength work and reactive/plyo stuff), but I'm still not convinced it does a huge amount. Probably enough to be worth the effort, in the sense that it hones the ability that's there, but not sure in terms of how much it develops the quality.

I wonder if the higher level the athlete the more beneficial it is precisely because it helps, but not a huge amount. I'm not sure if this makes sense, but what I'm thinking of is our high level baseball player. He gets to that level because of a way higher than normal hand eye coordination and bat speed. Any extra little bit could seperate him from the pack.

Also, this is why I think performance enhancers have their appeal in baseball- we've all heard the "steroids can't make you hit a curveball" statement, but at the level those guys play, even a slight addition in bat speed or strength could be enough to go to another level of performance.

(jeez I hope that made sense)

[Chris Correia]

Originally Posted by Ross Enamait

Baseball was my first love. Bring it! Ha!

Hey, Ross! Great to have you pop in. I'll have to visit your place now.

[RedLefty]

Originally Posted by dmw

(jeez I hope that made sense)

It does. Allow me to take you way back in time, almost three years, to this thread. The difference in performance between a AAA player and a major league player if often so infinitesimal, and the difference in paycheck is so substantial, that you can definitely see why so many guys do whatever it takes.

Baseball is a very mental game too. If 20 pounds of muscle makes you more confident, and it at least doesn't hurt your explosiveness, then yes, it made you better.

Thanks for the comment, Russ! Always good to meet another baseball guy. And I must say it's been great fun to watch your videos, and even more fun hijacking your thread here.