Hey everybody, I am a relatively frequent viewer of this forum, but it's my first time posting
I have some questions for anybody with experience lifting westside style.
I have been doing alot of research on westside style training instead of trying to decide whether or not to do a typical hypertrophy or strength program.
I'm torn between WS4SB or the traditional westside template.
I'm in college but do not play sports, and WSFSB seems to be geared towards them (with only one leg day). Should that make a difference for a non-athlete in choosing between them?
However, the Standard template has 2 ME and 2 DE days for upper and lower....with training on the weekends. I dislike/can't train on the weekends;(usually do some sprints/swim or something like that).
My question about this is, is there a way to break up the workout into a M-F program?
For the standard template I was thinking of
Mon: ME bench
Tue: DE squat/DL
Thu: ME squat/DL
Fri: DE bench
Would that work? Any other suggestions or advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
I'm not new to lifting, but I'm knew to this type of training.....I really think I'd like it though.
Hey everybody, I am a relatively frequent viewer of this forum, but it's my first time posting
I have some questions for anybody with experience lifting westside style.
I have been doing alot of research on westside style training instead of trying to decide whether or not to do a typical hypertrophy or strength program.
Why's it got to be either/or?
Quote:
I'm torn between WS4SB or the traditional westside template.
I'm in college but do not play sports, and WSFSB seems to be geared towards them (with only one leg day). Should that make a difference for a non-athlete in choosing between them?
It can. Joe's recommendations for only one leg day are mainly because it's expected that there's going to be other types of training involved.
Unless you're a genetic badass with years of experience and/or on large amounts of drugs, the WSB template as written can be a bit much for someone engaging in other kinds of athletic training.
If you're not doing anything but lifting, the regular template is probably a good starting point.
Quote:
However, the Standard template has 2 ME and 2 DE days for upper and lower....with training on the weekends. I dislike/can't train on the weekends;(usually do some sprints/swim or something like that).
My question about this is, is there a way to break up the workout into a M-F program?
The thing you're going to notice now is that WSB isn't a "program" in the sense you're thinking of it. Get away from that mentality. Think of it as a collection of guidelines and recommendations.
If you read the journals on EFS, none of those guys are using the bog-standard WSB template. Influences from it sure, but that's the idea: take the concepts and apply them to yourself.
So the answer is simple: Train Mon-Tues-Thurs-Fri
Quote:
For the standard template I was thinking of
Mon: ME bench
Tue: DE squat/DL
Thu: ME squat/DL
Fri: DE bench
Would that work? Any other suggestions or advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
You'll want to change that. After DE squatting, you're not going to want to come back in on Thursday to hit the heavy work.
Monday - DE Bench
Tuesday - DE Squat
Thursday - ME Bench
Friday - ME Squat
That looks a lot better; upper body precedes lower body, and the heavy work is grouped together.
Quote:
I'm not new to lifting, but I'm knew to this type of training.....I really think I'd like it though.
It's fun. But depending on where your numbers are, there's a few changes to each day that would be good to make. The typical DE and ME guidelines tend to skew towards strong-ass powerlifters with a ton of experience. Not to say guys with lower qualification can't use the idea, just that you'd benefit from modding them accordingly.
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You'll want to change that. After DE squatting, you're not going to want to come back in on Thursday to hit the heavy work.
Monday - DE Bench
Tuesday - DE Squat
Thursday - ME Bench
Friday - ME Squat
That looks a lot better; upper body precedes lower body, and the heavy work is grouped together.
It's fun. But depending on where your numbers are, there's a few changes to each day that would be good to make. The typical DE and ME guidelines tend to skew towards strong-ass powerlifters with a ton of experience. Not to say guys with lower qualification can't use the idea, just that you'd benefit from modding them accordingly.
Great advice from Matt. I just wanted to say hear hear!
What are your numbers right now? I have a feeling you're not strong enough for DE work to be really effective. It's just my opinion that until you're pushing some serious weight (on the order of 2.5x BW squat, 2x BW bench), DE work just isn't all that effective. I would use rep days instead of DE, esp since you're looking for size as well.
I also believe trying to cram a basic westside template into 5 days (M-F) is too much. While PMDL's suggestion is much better than your original thought, heed his advice that this type of training is very demanding if done properly. If you are really against training on weekends, I'd train 3 days a week on M-W-F. Have your 4 workouts, and just rotate through them, something like this:
M - RE Bench
W - ME Squat/DL
F - ME Bench
M - RE Squat/DL
W - RE Bench
F - ME Squat/DL
M - ME Bench
W - RE Squat/DL
F - RE Bench
etc etc.
Only training 3 days a week will keep your body fresh and give you extra rest, something you'll find you need on westside. But like PMDL said, don't think of this as a 'program,' research it, learn the theories behind it, and apply them how they work for you. Experiment with everything, I'm just giving a couple suggestions from my experience with it.
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Ya the RE suggestion is a good one. Even something as basic as 5x5 can work wonders. I've been playing around with using the rep schemes of DE work, more or less, but just using higher %s. I spent the last few weeks doing one day of 4-6x4 and 6-8x3 on the bench with higher than the 50-60%. I don't have the exact % I used because that's gay, but it was likely in the ballpark of 75-85%, so that's an option to play with as well.
Also, I've noticed personally that the ME days can do a little better if you're not pushing up to heavy 1-3RMs on different exercises.
Something that Joe Kenn uses is waves of 5RM/3RM/1RM. Another option would be to use a 6-10RM on some exercises as well. One of my favorites is just to do maybe 5-10 singles with a decently heavy weight. The point would be to shift things away from the actual max-effort training done, and making it more inline with repeated-effort type work. You'd still hit some kind of max, it just might not necessarily be a true 1RM on a special exercise that you rotate out every week. The less advanced you are, the less likely this is to pay off.
I know even at my best, some of the DE and ME methods as-written don't really apply much. Maybe to the DL, because that's getting up into wacky doesn't-respond-to-simple-overload-anymore territory, which is where some of this insanity comes into play, but the squat and bench are still responsive to the less-complex stuff, so that's what's easier and most productive.
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wow, that some great and info. Thanks PowerManDL and Jason B. And the more research I have done, I see that I would benefit more from RE that DE days, because my numbers are relatively low.
So for an example of repetiton day for lower body, how should that look in terms of sets/reps and exercise?
if your numbers are low, depending on how low, i would run something like a 3 day split revolving around squats, deadlifts, presses and rows. Something like the 5x5 range, or 4x6 or something like that to build a base. Westside is cool, and works, but you're going to see a lot better results if you master the basics, before doing a lot of the speciality exercises and parameters westside uses.
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I am new to this forum, but I think I can offer a little bit of advice as I have some experience with this method and also some experience working with beginner athletes. I will say a few things but first of all is that I do not think that you do not have to be advanced to train "Westside." I put quotes around that because you aren't really training Westside unless you:
A.) Are competing in powerlifting
and
B.) Actually train there.
But what the Westside is all about is (as PowerManDL mentioned) simply a collection of methods and principles designed around increasing the various forms of strength. I think these methods can be arranged to fit the needs of any athlete, from advanced to beginner, seeking to gain strength in some fashion, be it maximal or explosive. Now you said you are not an athlete but to me that doesn't mean you shouldn't train like one. I think anybody would love to have the strength and power (not to mention physique!) of a collegiate linebacker. And as far as hypertrophy goes, if you are eating properly, you will throw slabs on muscle everywhere, especially your posterior chain, triceps and upper back.
If nobody minds, I'll outline a few of my thoughts on Westside training for beginners, as this is probably what I have the most experience with. I used the principles when I was first starting out, basically copying everything Joe DeFranco did, and with the athletes I train now... still basically copying Joe DeFranco haha.
As far as a template goes, I would start with the "traditional" setup of:
Day 1- DE Upper
Day 2- ME Lower
rest one or two days
Day 3- ME Upper
Day 4- DE Lower
I can definitely see where people are going with the 3-day split where you just alternate, but I have always preferred the 4-day split and just dropping the volume down a little lower on each day. Weekly volume still winds up being about the same but you are just training more frequently. Plus I think a beginner should train a bit more frequently, often an intermediate-level lifter might move into the 3-day split as he/she starts to stress their system more. For all I know, this could be you. Once you starting getting the deadlift up over 4 plates, it can be pretty taxing, but I personally train four days and that would be my preferred split. You can also do something like:
Monday- ME Lower
Wednesday- ME Upper
Friday- DE Total + assistance
Which I have done with some athletes and I think it works well although if your goal is hypertrophy it might not work quite as well as the total volume is going to be a bit low.
As far as DE work goes, I do recommend it. Now of course, some will say that repetition work is more important if your goal is hypertrophy (and I do think that is very valid) but I don't think that dynamic work should be neglected altogether. Dynamic work increases your explosive strength, activates a lot of fast-twitch muscle fibers and helps you lift heavier weight... which in turn can help with hypertrophy goals. With that said, the only "traditional" dynamic work I really ever do is speed pulls. Since I'm not a competitive powerlifter, nor have I ever worked with one, I've also ditched dynamic bench in favor of med ball throws/slams, push press or jerk, plyo pushups, etc. And I prefer some sort of jump (box, vertical, broad, depth) to dynamic squats. Speed pulls I like though and you can also do cleans or snatches.
One thing to remember though, regarding both ME and DE days is the fact that most of the work is still repetition-based. I once spoke to Jim Wendler and he said something to the effect of, "If you're skinny and not that strong, the Westside system boils down to, 'on one day you lift really heavy, then go bodybuild, and on another you lift really fast and then go bodybuild.' " So that is why I like to incorporate dynamic work, you hit one or maybe two exercises using the dynamic-effort method and then you do 2 or 3 more where the focus is on repetition.
Also, you can cycle,
Week 1,2- DE
Week 3,4- RE
and so on...
Alright my response is really getting rambling so I'll try to give my recommendations for whatever they are worth:
DE Upper:
A. Dynamic-effort lift, whatever that may be for you. Push press might work well as that is a great shoulder builder but at the same time you are working on explosive power.
B. Heavy triceps (like a board press or heavy compound of some sort)
C. Upper back work like rows or pullups
D. Whatever else you want like grip work or shrugs or biceps
ME Lower:
A. Max-effort lift
B. Higher-rep posterior chain
C. Unilateral llift
D. Abs (this is the one you skip so you "don't get overtrained"... or maybe that's just me)
ME Upper:
A. Max-effort lift
B. Higher-rep triceps (more of an isolation like extensions or pushdowns)
C. Upper back work
D. Whatever else you want
DE Lower:
A. Dynamic-effort lift: Which might not be a bad idea for you to include in a more traditional sense if you are wanting to get strong in the powerlift and don't really care as much about athletic performance to do jumps or whatever. Speed pulls can be great here because they allow you to deadlift without doing max-effort deads which can really wipe you out.
B. Heavy posterior chain
C. Unliteral or other quad builder
D. Abs
E. Pump up the guns... remember this is Friday night so don't skip this one!
Okay that was really long but hopefully you got something out of there. I hope you don't think that including a template on the end is being condescending or telling you what to do, I just can't always explain my ideas fully and just find it easier to give examples.
Wow, that was a really long first post on this board... I just really love this style of training so I encourage everybody to get into it!
If I was doing a "Total" day, I'd just stick to compounds and keep the total number of exercises fairly low.
For DE, you could make your first exercise an O-lift variation such as clean and press, clean and jerk, split jerk, push jerk, push press, etc. that is going to involve the whole body and from there throw on compounds for lower body, push and pull. Something like:
A. Clean and press, 6 x 3
B. RDL, 4-6 x 4-6
C. Incline bench, 4-6 x 4-6
D. Pullups, 4-6 x 4-6
For RE, I would pick one lift to do first as an RE movement, 3 sets of max reps and the rest do more traditional sets/reps. For squatting you could do something like 225 squat reps (or 315 or 135, etc.) or sled dragging or walking lunges. For pressing you could do a bodyweight exercise like pushups or dips or some sort of bench reps (225, 185, etc.) test. "Triceps death" (3-board to 4-board to 5-board for max reps consecutively) is also awesome. For pulling, some variation of pull-ups or chins work well. You could also do a "most number of reps in X amount. of time", kind of like an EDT thing. This would work well, for example, for somebody who can't do more than say 10 pullups, they can get more total reps in by following an X amount of time philosophy than just 3 max sets.
So you might do:
A. Bench press, 225 for 3 sets of max reps
B. Good mornings, 4-6 x 4-6
C. Bentover rows, 4-6 x 4-6
That's a decent workout just right there and you could add more if need be. If you're really crazy, you can do an all-out RE move for lower and upper body but personally I'm pretty wiped from doing one movement in that fashion and then it is just kind of going through the motions after that.
There's lots of ways you can do it, I would just keep in mind to remember that you have the three main methods, max-effort, dynamic-effort and rep-effort and the way I see it is you can really only kinda pull yourself in one direction at a time and include enough of the rest to maintain the other qualities.
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